Are You Scared Of Religious Life?

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1267337067' post='2064142']
That's why I started going to Latin Mass - just couldn't take the liturgical abuses any more, every diocese and parish different. now I know exactlywhat I am getting every time! Praise God for His goodness to me.
[/quote]


I went a different direction. I felt too much like a spectator with the EF. So I went East... and have felt more at peace than any time in my life.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='HisChild' date='28 February 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1267337481' post='2064145']
I went a different direction. I felt too much like a spectator with the EF. So I went East... and have felt more at peace than any time in my life.
[/quote]


I guess I can see that, but the EF is like contemplation for me, so I get the best of everything, contemplation and the liturgy and the sacrament.... heaven for me.

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 February 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1267337742' post='2064147']
I guess I can see that, but the EF is like contemplation for me, so I get the best of everything, contemplation and the liturgy and the sacrament.... heaven for me.
[/quote]

Same for me and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I'm transported.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='HisChild' date='28 February 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1267337845' post='2064148']
Same for me and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I'm transported.
[/quote]


Don't tempt me you seductress you. I am perfectly happy with the EF but I haven't been to an Eastern Rite or Orthodox so I can't compare. And I don't want to, I love my SD, and my church, so no more changes right now! Get thee behind me! LOL

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 February 2010 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1267338074' post='2064150']
Don't tempt me you seductress you. I am perfectly happy with the EF but I haven't been to an Eastern Rite or Orthodox so I can't compare. And I don't want to, I love my SD, and my church, so no more changes right now! Get thee behind me! LOL
[/quote]


Oh stop it. I'm not trying to 'convert' you. I know you love the EF. Personally, I had been drawn to the East since I was with the DCJ and we'd gone to a religious life conference... and attended a Melkite (I think) Divine Liturgy. It was amazing. This is just the culmination.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='HisChild' date='28 February 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1267338445' post='2064152']
Oh stop it. I'm not trying to 'convert' you. I know you love the EF. Personally, I had been drawn to the East since I was with the DCJ and we'd gone to a religious life conference... and attended a Melkite (I think) Divine Liturgy. It was amazing. This is just the culmination.
[/quote]


I hope you realize that I joke a lot? We have hijacked this thread

I have friends who belong to the Chaldean Catholic Church and they are so proud because they speak Aramaic, the language of Our Lord! Now that is a language I would love to learn.

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1267338606' post='2064153']
I hope you realize that I joke a lot? We have hijacked this thread

I have friends who belong to the Chaldean Catholic Church and they are so proud because they speak Aramaic, the language of Our Lord! Now that is a language I would love to learn.
[/quote]

I know you're joking. I was being flip.

I would love to learn Aramaic... or even Syriac, which is an offshoot. How beautiful would that be!

[DiscerningSoul]

This topic really hits home for me, because I left before even really starting because of fear.
But you know what? I love to much to give up on his calling for me.
and I truely believe this time I will prevail.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='DiscerningSoul' date='28 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1267350024' post='2064178']
This topic really hits home for me, because I left before even really starting because of fear.
But you know what? I love to much to give up on his calling for me.
and I truely believe this time I will prevail.
[/quote]


He loves the fact that we love Him. And it might be better to be outside wanting to get in, than inside wanting to get out??

At least this way, we are constantly putting Him in front of our eyes and in our hearts. So in a way, discernment is a gift. Sometimes when I think how He uses things like temptations to make us stronger, then I also think that this longing for religious life is just a way to teach us how to love Him more. Longing is a good thing....

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

Beautiful posts from everyone. Thank you for your honesty and God reward each of your for your perseverance!

I need some advice, and I've been wanting to post this for a while now.

One of my dearest friends spent nine months in a particular community. She left college, her aspirations, paid off student loans, the whole bit, and entered a community she surely felt destined for. She left after nine months and returned home feeling no pull in her life towards anything. Now, almost a year since she left the community, she is having a severe period of distrust in God and doubt of even His existence. I feel so obligated to help her in some way, but I really don't know what's best. I've since had to move so we are no longer living in the same city, which is hard. She seems wounded and indifferent to her faith. What should I do? Some have told me to just be still and know that He is God and to pray. But I fear the safety of her soul, and that some kind of action needs to be taken, but I know she isn't necessarily open to anything I'd have to say about it.

Did anyone experience this after leaving religious life? Any advice for how I can help her?

Thank you and God reward you.

[brightsadness]

Some scattered thoughts:

Commitment is scary. Falling in love is a big help with that. There really isn't much of a support system in the modern western church for discerning one's path of discipleship' In the Eastern Church, spending time as a lay person at a monastery is recommended so you have opportunities during times of pilgimage etc to get to know monks and nuns a little more. Even so, it's hard to picture myself as a nun. It's just that it's even harder to not respond to what has become my heart's desire as I try to listen to His call.

The sex abuse scandals have surely scared our parents and also provide an opportunity for the discerner to share in the experience of shame and dishonor that these actions have brought to the church. But the Beatitiudes help me deal with that.

I'm blessed in that my family supports my vocational discernment and I'm young enough that the financial risk is minimal.

Others have spoken well of the emotional and spiritual risks which I
have not experienced.

We are not outside the culture which helped shape and form us. Hopefully, our responses in faith will help shape and form what will be.

End of scattered thougts.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img]

Anya

Edited February 28, 2010 by brightsadness

[LightofMary]

In our Congregation, we do not advise a Postulant to do away with house, bank account, etc. until the time of First Profession of Vows. What is recommended is for them to find a trusted person who will manage these affairs for them while discerning. It is a prudent counsel because as all the posters have testified to, it doesn't always work out. The Church only imposes the demands of the Vow of Poverty when one takes the vows. Postulants and Novices are still in the "come and see" phase and are exempt from it.
Again, I'd like to suggest that one sees religious life as a gift. We do not go into it with expectations of certainty. We are answering a Call to the best of our abilities, and if it doesn't work, it is part of the package. It is a relationship built on trust, not a business contract. There is also a human element involved. Communities need to be able to assess qualities present in the individual which would make it possible to enhance Community life. Just because we feel we want to be in this community means the community should accept us. We are knocking at the door, so to speak, and in the spirit of humility, we beg to be admitted. I know it is hard to understand that in our culture of consumerism. I understand the pain. But the phrase, "when God closes a door, He opens a window," is true in religious life.

For someone who experienced or is experiencing hurts, my advice is to let the anger and disillusionment take their course. The prophet Jeremiah experienced the same thing when he lamented, "you duped me , O God, and I let myself be duped!" God will draw us back to Him. Our prayers will help those who are going through the experience.

Edited February 28, 2010 by LightofMary

[HisChild]

[quote name='LightofMary' date='28 February 2010 - 08:00 AM' timestamp='1267369220' post='2064221']
In our Congregation, we do not advise a Postulant to do away with house, bank account, etc. until the time of First Profession of Vows. What is recommended is for them to find a trusted person who will manage these affairs for them while discerning. It is a prudent counsel because as all the posters have testified to, it doesn't always work out. The Church only imposes the demands of the Vow of Poverty when one takes the vows. Postulants and Novices are still in the "come and see" phase and are exempt from it.
[/quote]

Sr. Helena, I'm sure that most communities tell their postulants not to sell all before entering especially active congregations... but when one is cloistered she cannot return home to take care of this business once she does make vows. There are very few monasteries out there that would allow such a thing. Most of the time, discerners are working furiously to get rid of debt, I cannot imagine that she'd have enough money left over to make house payments for three years before making vows. I know in my case, even if I'd found a renter for my house, no one would have taken on the responsibility of making sure my house remained repair-free for that length of time, the type of work a landlord would have to do, without something in it for them, because that involves a LOT of work and time. My family didn't even have the space to store any of my belongings or furniture (I gave some of my furniture to several family members, but none gave any of it back when I returned) and I didn't have the money to give to them to manage a storage unit for me until I made vows. So while it's a great ideal to tell someone not to sell car or house, unless you've got an amazing support system who can take care of all these things for you, many times your only option IS to sell it all and pray that by entering, you really are entering for life.

[HisChild]

[quote name='brightsadness' date='28 February 2010 - 07:33 AM' timestamp='1267367639' post='2064212']
Some scattered thoughts:

Commitment is scary. Falling in love is a big help with that. There really isn't much of a support system in the modern western church for discerning one's path of discipleship' In the Eastern Church, spending time as a lay person at a monastery is recommended so you have opportunities during times of pilgimage etc to get to know monks and nuns a little more. Even so, it's hard to picture myself as a nun. It's just that it's even harder to not respond to what has become my heart's desire as I try to listen to His call.

The sex abuse scandals have surely scared our parents and also provide an opportunity for the discerner to share in the experience of shame and dishonor that these actions have brought to the church. But the Beatitiudes help me deal with that.

I'm blessed in that my family supports my vocational discernment and I'm young enough that the financial risk is minimal.

Others have spoken well of the emotional and spiritual risks which I
have not experienced.

[b]We are not outside the culture which helped shape and form us. Hopefully, our responses in faith will help shape and form what will be.[/b]

End of scattered thougts.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img]

Anya
[/quote]
I cannot imagine what it's like to enter the priesthood in today's day. Those brave souls really have it rough. I can only imagine some of the snarky comments that some of them might have had or are having from 'friends' regarding the scandals and how they're heading right into the thick of it.

I pray for priests and those discerning the priesthood for that very reason.

The comment I bolded above really touched me. We as Americans are so incredibly independent and most of us are truly products of our culture. But there's hope and the Grace of God that will form us into His Sacred Image.

Lord, Have mercy on me, a sinner. By Your Grace may I be transformed too.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='28 February 2010 - 07:14 AM' timestamp='1267366462' post='2064207']
Beautiful posts from everyone. Thank you for your honesty and God reward each of your for your perseverance!

I need some advice, and I've been wanting to post this for a while now.

One of my dearest friends spent nine months in a particular community. She left college, her aspirations, paid off student loans, the whole bit, and entered a community she surely felt destined for. She left after nine months and returned home feeling no pull in her life towards anything. Now, almost a year since she left the community, she is having a severe period of distrust in God and doubt of even His existence. I feel so obligated to help her in some way, but I really don't know what's best. I've since had to move so we are no longer living in the same city, which is hard. She seems wounded and indifferent to her faith. What should I do? Some have told me to just be still and know that He is God and to pray. But I fear the safety of her soul, and that some kind of action needs to be taken, but I know she isn't necessarily open to anything I'd have to say about it.

Did anyone experience this after leaving religious life? Any advice for how I can help her?

Thank you and God reward you.
[/quote]

First, I will keep your friend in prayer. She really needs someone to be gentle with her. I know for me, this last time, if I only had someone to talk to I might have 'come around' a lot sooner. I had no one who could relate to my experience. Even on here (this was 4 years ago), there really wasn't anyone to speak with that had left religious life, and if there was, we didn't connect. I was angry at God and angry at the Church. The priests I went to after returning, asking for assistance in discerning, were not helpful. Some were downright unkind about religious vocations altogether. I really had to heal on my own, with the help of God alone. Does your friend have a good spiritual director and if so, has she received any assistance from him/her?

I sort of agree with Sr. Helena to let the anger run its course, but in a way I don't. Because she might be feeling right now that no one is supporting her. It's kind of like when someone close to you dies and everyone stays away because they don't know what to say. Others feel they're giving the mourner space. The mourner feels like she's being shunned, or something similar. So maybe your friend would LOVE to hash it out with someone and no one has been willing to try. So since you say you're willing...

It really depends on why she left as to how you might be able to help her. I am ONLY giving 'advice' (and I hate to call it that) in how it pertained to my own experience. I'm not a spiritual director, a priest, or a psychiatrist, and any or all of the above might be better.

A feeling of being directionless is certainly a possibility. The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was to sit down with her and ask her why she seems indifferent. Maybe she hasn't had time to REALLY process it all. All the emotions are being dealt with in bulk, so to speak. I assume at this time that when you say she's a very dear friend, your relationship is such that you can talk to each other about anything. If that isn't the case, then my only advice is to encourage her to talk to someone and really get to the heart of why she's still a little indifferent, because it would seem that based on her actions, she hasn't healed from her experience. If you feel you ARE in such a relationship with her that you can ask her anything, I'd start by asking her if you can really speak to her about why she left, so she doesn't think your questions are coming from left field. Then be specific in your questions:

I'd first ask what led up to her leaving. See if she's open to discussion with you. If you see her opening up, then it tells you she WANTS to talk about it and is glad to finally be able to do so with someone who really wants to know.

Then ask questions like:
What happened when she returned to her home parish? How did others treat her?
What does she think of her experience, now that she's had a year? Was it a good one? Did she regret it, and if so, why?
Perhaps she needs to get to the heart of why she's still in pain. Is it from a certain person, from the reaction of her parish when she returned, maybe even the reaction of her parents. But once you're able to help her see why she's really still hurt or angry, then she might be able to realize that that one issue is not her whole experience. For instance, if she's angry with a person in the community she left, she can be angry with ______________ , realize that person is human with all the foibles that comes with our humanity, and finally move on, no longer relating the anger to that whole experience, but just to one particular piece of it.

I know for me, when it was still raw in my mind and heart, I lumped the entire hurt and anger into one ball and was feeling disillusioned about everything, not just where it should have been directed. Because of that, I stopped going to church for a year, which only hurt me in the long run, but our Lord is such a loving God. He understood my pain and allowed me to wallow for a bit. Then He drew me back to Himself. Maybe that will happen with your friend... but I'll bet, if she hasn't had anyone to really talk to, she'll appreciate your concern.

Edited to add: Again, I will pray for her, and I hope some of my words helped. Heh, use it like a self-help book. Pick out the good parts and toss the rest.

Edited February 28, 2010 by HisChild

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='28 February 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1267366462' post='2064207']
One of my dearest friends spent nine months in a particular community. She left college, her aspirations, paid off student loans, the whole bit, and entered a community she surely felt destined for. She left after nine months and returned home feeling no pull in her life towards anything. Now, almost a year since she left the community, she is having a severe period of distrust in God and doubt of even His existence. I feel so obligated to help her in some way, but I really don't know what's best. I've since had to move so we are no longer living in the same city, which is hard. She seems wounded and indifferent to her faith. What should I do? Some have told me to just be still and know that He is God and to pray. But I fear the safety of her soul, and that some kind of action needs to be taken, but I know she isn't necessarily open to anything I'd have to say about it.

Did anyone experience this after leaving religious life? Any advice for how I can help her?
[/quote]
Be there for her in love. When I left the 1st community in 2004 I went through such a period. God placed precisely the right people in place, including a seminarian who formed a parish group that lasted maybe 1 year. It lasted precisely long enough for me to have gotten involved, and to get the support that I needed during that trial. Honestly if it wasn't due to his sacrifice and work and presence, I probably would have left the Church.

Its a trial for her ... once she is through it, God willing, she will be stronger for it.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='LightofMary' date='28 February 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1267369220' post='2064221']
Communities need to be able to assess qualities present in the individual which would make it possible to enhance Community life. Just because we feel we want to be in this community means the community should accept us. We are knocking at the door, so to speak, and in the spirit of humility, we beg to be admitted. I know it is hard to understand that in our culture of consumerism. I understand the pain. But the phrase, "when God closes a door, He opens a window," is true in religious life.
[/quote]

Sister Helena:

I agree ... but I think it is important to also realize the human factor in community life. Every community has its imperfections too, just like we each have them. No -- the community doesn't have to accept us. And sometimes, there are injustices that occur. That is part of the sinfulness of being human; it is part of life (including life in a religious community).

I think those of us that have spoken to our personal experiences know very well that the community makes a choice just like we do. It is part of the risk that one takes in pursuing religious life.

Blessings,

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

HisChild and cmariadiaz, thank you so very much for your words.

[Hilde]

Yeah it's a little scary.

I wouldn't have husband and kids. Who would hug me all teh time?

If I'd enter now, I'd never know how it's like to live alone. I've been living with my parents and my brother in the same house for all my life and I'm annoyed.

Anipals. I have two guinea pigs at the time, and I don't know how my life would be without animal friends.

commitment

vow of poverty.

[LightofMary]

[quote name='HisChild' date='28 February 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1267370354' post='2064223']
Sr. Helena, I'm sure that most communities tell their postulants not to sell all before entering especially active congregations... but when one is cloistered she cannot return home to take care of this business once she does make vows. There are very few monasteries out there that would allow such a thing. Most of the time, discerners are working furiously to get rid of debt, I cannot imagine that she'd have enough money left over to make house payments for three years before making vows. I know in my case, even if I'd found a renter for my house, no one would have taken on the responsibility of making sure my house remained repair-free for that length of time, the type of work a landlord would have to do, without something in it for them, because that involves a LOT of work and time. My family didn't even have the space to store any of my belongings or furniture (I gave some of my furniture to several family members, but none gave any of it back when I returned) and I didn't have the money to give to them to manage a storage unit for me until I made vows. So while it's a great ideal to tell someone not to sell car or house, unless you've got an amazing support system who can take care of all these things for you, many times your only option IS to sell it all and pray that by entering, you really are entering for life.
[/quote]

I see what you mean. This of course is case to case. When i entered the cloistered Carmel, I did not own a house, but I had money and car. I sold the car and saved the money in the bank as a nest egg. I kept my nursing license active for the duration of formation. My possessions were few- furniture, clothes, etc., and I disposed of them all. My spiritual director directed me to keep only the money until I was sure. I left the cloister 2 years later for an active Carmelite community. But there was a gap of 2 years from the time I left to the time I joined the active Carmelites. During that length of time I had the money to fall back to. I started anew with renting an apartment, finding a job, etc. God arranged things for me and I entered another Community after 2 years. This was 17 years ago. It might be that more people have busier lifestyles and more possessions to dispose of these days. More and more men and women are entering older and they have accumulated more material possessions. It makes it more complicated, I think.

All congregations would require that a person settles all his/her debts before entrance. In fact, that will be part of the questions asked. I also know of a Novice who owned a house and property. She was advised to keep them until profession of vows. She had someone to help her manage them. It was a good decision because on her second year as a Novice, she decided it was not the life for her. Her physical adjustment would not be so difficult. The Church is more and more in agreement with this because experience shows that the first 2-5 years are tough adjustment time. It's true that it would also depend on the type of vows taken. For Solemn Vows (most of cloistered comm) one cannot retain or accept patrimony (inheritance). So one in solemn vows would have to surrender everything either to a person of choice or to the Community one joined. If she leaves after solemn vows, getting settled back in the world would be more difficult. Simple Vows are different. One in simple vows can retain use of possessions but not ownership. It would have to be under someone's name or someone would have to manage it for you. If one in simple vows leaves, she would have something as a support to get her back in the saddle again.

I guess my point is that I do not deny the difficulties and complexities. But one shoud be open to the risks and sacrifices entailed. The lessons of the great personalities in the Bible like Abraham, Moses, Mary- all show us that discipleship will cost us something. Jesus said, "anyone who loses his life for My sake, will find it." If we lose our life as we know it because we followed something thought to be God's Will, then we should have the faith to believe that we will find it back again. If things seem to go bad for us and our desire for religious life, we should offer everything as a sign of our good will, and move on. Fear is a great temptation from the devil and if we allow it to take over, the only loser would be us.

"Be not afraid!"