Exegesis Of St. James

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 11:58 AM'] you don't need works to obtain salvation. to get saved all you need is faith, to say otherwise is unbiblical. [/quote]
BUT lumberjack---IS it to say otherwise than that unbiblical?! English is actually the primary language (with Spanish as my 2nd), but it would really help if you were able to back what you preach with more evidence so i could understand your point better--then my point might make sense to you later.

[quote]can you NOT think for yourself?
or are you so spoon fed by the Church that you no longer look things up to see for yourself?[/quote]

however, if you just choose to attempt a bashing of what i believe in, then you won't have many willing to debate with you on this.
also--as dave pointed out-if you think that the Pope is God, and that we worship wafers... u have some more RCIA classes to attend.

i will only agree with you on one point--neither of us can decide for each other who is right, it's only a debate.

[Justified Saint]

If you are being spoonfed by the Church, you are in good company.

At least we don't have Bruce spoonfeeding us what the Catholic faith is.

[CatholicCrusader]

Bruce, if you really believe that anti-Saint James, lutheran nonsense, then you certainly cannot also claim that all Scripture is from God and is "profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice", c.f., II St. Timothy iii.16. I feel that any honest Bible scholar will surely accept the Catholic teaching, and this has been proven, so I will make only one commment. In response to a Protestant's earlier claim that Baptism is not necessary for salvation, why don't you read what the Bible says about it? There are very many references where it is commanded as necessary, but it is said most explicity, by Our Lord Himself in Saint John's Gospel, c.f., St. John iii. This is straight from the Bible, said by God Himself, "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Where does it say "Don't worry about Baptism, just make sure they are saved" or "They don't really need to be born again of water and the Holy Ghost as long as it is the Holy Ghost in some other form", i.e., blood, desire, etc? God bless.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Bulls-eye! This means that our good works are not our own. Our good works are incapable of satisfying God. It is thru Christ alone that any of our works are capable of being classified as 'good.' In my own strength, I can do all the good(man-pleasing) works I want. And yes, they may be good things. But if I am doing them out of an attitude of "If I do these things then surely God will be pleased with me," I'm doing them for the wrong reason. My works should spring up out of my love for God. Only then am I doing any works on God's terms.[/quote]

I don't think you could have said it any better.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:27 AM'] But Paul tells us that any good in him is not of himself, but of Christ. It is in Christ that any good is accomplished thru us. [/quote]
I don't think you'll find a Catholic on this board who will deny this (1 Cor 15:10, Phil 2:12-13, Gal 2:20). It is simple biblical teaching. This is how the Catholic Church reconciles the two seemingly contradictory biblical teachings that salvation is both a gift of God and a reward for works (Matt 5:12, 6:3-4, 16:27, 25:34 et seq., Luke 6:35, 14:13-14, Rom 2:6, 1 Cor 3:8, Eph 6:8, 2 Tim 4:6-8).

[NewReformation]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:42 PM'] Why did Christ command something that is not neccesary? [/quote]
So where is the thief on the cross?

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Because it is directly commanded by Christ and closely tied with our redemption into the New Covenant. If someone doesn't understand that they need to be baptized (that is ignorant not by their own will) than they have been basically baptized by desire, as Catholics put it.

However if someone knows Christ commands baptism but refuses to be baptized, where does that put them? They are flat out rejecting the commands of Christ. Christ's response to this is "He cannot be my disciple".[/quote]

but wouldn't adding anything to Christ's work on the cross make our salvation one of works, rather than Faith in Christ and what He did for us?

I understand that John 3:5 says that we have to be born of "water and the spirit" but... Jesus is emphatic that man does not need a reformation, but a radical conversion by the Spirit of God What does it mean to be born of water? We know that from verse 10 that these examples should have been familiar to Nicodemus, probably from the Old Testament. After all, Nicodemus WAS a scholar, wasn't he? Water may represent baptism, but there is no real Old Testament foundation for this. Water may represent physical birth, but isn't that obvious? But it may be a parallel with that which is born of the flesh in verse 6.

Water may represent the Word, as we arewashed by the water of the word (Ephesians 5:26). Water may represent the Holy Spirit, theliving water of John 7:38-39. Water may represent the water of cleansing prophesied in Ezekiel 36:25-28 Without the new birth of the Spirit, all works of righteousness are tainted by the flesh. Jesus says "you don't understand everythingabout the wind, but you see its effects; that is just how it iswith the birth of the Spirit" Remember the emphasis: this is something God does in us; not something we do for God.

[quote]The only objection a Catholic might actually have to faith alone is that in some definitions "faith alone" is defined as a faith that does not need obedience. Dead, alive, mediocre. Whatever. As long as someone has prayed and said they accept Christ nothing else matters- yet Christ says our works DO matter. They don't earn us salvation as in replacing Christ's role as the paschal lamb. This is what so many Protestants think Catholics are doing- "If I have so many good works and have faith I can go to heaven. I.E. Faith+ X number of Works=Heaven.[/quote]

but we do need to endure in the faith...run the race with endurance...fight the good fight, persevere, seek diligently...more than anything, we are called to be trained and ready for anything the Lord calls us to. and we can't do that by just claiming to have faith and be fat stagnant Christians.

[quote]Formulas don't work with Catholicism though. There is somewhat of an incomprehinsable mystery to our liberation from evil. If I were to make a formula for Catholic salvation like protestants do I would have an infinity sign (sideways 8) with faith and works (or "Faith working in love) all within that infinity sign.[/quote]

hmm...I can't see that...all I've read has led me to perceive otherwise.

[quote]It is a life of faithfulness that Catholics stress brings eternal redemption, whereas it is a moment of conversion that most reformed Protestants stress. However Catholics say that it is a moment of conversion that brings adoption as a son of God (in baptism) or forgiveness (in repentance in some cases)----> initial salvation (for most people that is infant baptism).[/quote]

again...we are called to endure, for all our life, not just a moment. we are redeemed at the moment of salvation, and are Children of God...if we are not, then why would He even bother to work in us? why would He justify us and sanctify us to Himself thru our repentence if we are to live an uncertain life where we never really know if we are Children of God or not.

[quote]Hopefully that made more sense than confusion[/quote]

its helped some...but I think we need to start our own topic...maybe.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]but wouldn't adding anything to Christ's work on the cross make our salvation one of works, rather than Faith in Christ and what He did for us?[/quote]

Of course not because it isn't adding anything. How is doing something that Christ commanded "adding"? Indeed, [b]all works in Christ [/b]are holy and have been prepared for us. Thus the [b]works of Christ [/b] can't "add" anything to salvation for it is so defines and brings us to salvation. Is it not your contention (as you have stated in another thread) that man comes and intiates a relationship with God by man's own power to show faith? That is what you call a man-centered and work-driven view of salvation.

[Brother Adam]

Hrm...maybe we do need a separate thread. It is difficult to understand the Catholic mindset when your trained in corporate theology. For some it is near impossible because they can get past the "face-value literal" reading of the Bible.

I'm going to think how to best answer your dialogue and get back to you tonight or tomorrow latest. Feel free to open a separate thread if you wish, or I'll just respond here.

Bro. Adam

[Brother Adam]

It took me near about forever to figure out that covenant theology was not "works-based" like Protestants think it is, but "grace-based". It's an almost tireless search if your looking into reading all you can about it.