A Monastic "field Trip"

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='12 March 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1268404935' post='2071695']
Did you read the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page? These are "collector's items for display purposes only."
[/quote]

Funny they advertise them but you can't fins any place to buy them. I would have liked too as I no longer have my hair shirt. The cilice and discipline i already have .

Edited March 12, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[HisChild]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='12 March 2010 - 06:56 AM' timestamp='1268402199' post='2071676']
I've always wondered what a real hairshirt looks like. So, I googled and found [url="http://www.cilice.co.uk/"]a store[/url] that sells various penitential instruments (I always wondered where one could buy these things from... If you are faint of heart DO NOT click that link.). Here's the hair shirt they sell:

For some reason I guess I thought it would look... [i]hairier[/i]. (Like fluffy angora wool.)
[/quote]


LOL! I found that site a while ago! Can you believe they have a site dedicated to selling stuff like that? After seeing that they also sell rosary rings, mantillas, and Catholic books, I thought, 'dude, this is one hardcore Catholic site! I actually found several items at one point on ebay.

[dominicansoul]

I stayed with the novitiate for a month at this monastery and was privileged to have a look at the archives. I was amazed and fascinated with the whips and chains, etc. One of the nuns told me that during the discipline, it wasn't that uncommon when the nun in front of you would miss her back and hit the sister directly behind her!

...religious life of the past must have been filled with "classic convent moments!"

[vee]

Whats this about a [i]night scapular[/i]?! And why do I suddenly want one

Edited March 12, 2010 by vee8

[HisChild]

Have you ever seen the 3rd Order Carmelites in Church with their large scapulars? The nuns in many monasteries wear them instead of their scapulars that are part of their habit. You can see them at the bottom of [url="http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapulars-brown-scapular-of-our-lady-of-mount-carmel.php?gclid=CNuXr5O7s6ACFRgsawodhSUfUA"]this page.[/url]

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='HisChild' date='12 March 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1268405675' post='2071710']
Have you ever seen the 3rd Order Carmelites in Church with their large scapulars? The nuns in many monasteries wear them instead of their scapulars that are part of their habit. You can see them at the bottom of [url="http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapulars-brown-scapular-of-our-lady-of-mount-carmel.php?gclid=CNuXr5O7s6ACFRgsawodhSUfUA"]this page.[/url]
[/quote]
The size is about right but the straps are too thin... the straps on the night scapular are about two inches thich or more so the dont slipp off in sleep. Ours also had a metal 2 inch crucifix sewn onto the front/

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='12 March 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1268405100' post='2071700']
Funny they advertise them but you can't fins any place to buy them. I would have liked too as I no longer have my hair shirt. The cilice and discipline i already have .
[/quote]
It looks like the only item that has a button to buy is the Mantilla.

[HisChild]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='12 March 2010 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1268404935' post='2071695']
Did you read the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page? These are "collector's items for display purposes only."
[/quote]


If you email them, they ask you the questions like are you older than 18, etc. When I first went on the site, there were more 'buy now' buttons, so either they're out or need to screen the buyers first.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='HisChild' date='12 March 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1268406991' post='2071725']
If you email them, they ask you the questions like are you older than 18, etc. When I first went on the site, there were more 'buy now' buttons, so either they're out or need to screen the buyers first.
[/quote]

Thanks His child... I need to do plenty in the process of discernment of course with permission which has already been given.

hugs,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited March 12, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[vee]

[quote name='HisChild' date='13 March 2010 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1268405675' post='2071710']
Have you ever seen the 3rd Order Carmelites in Church with their large scapulars? The nuns in many monasteries wear them instead of their scapulars that are part of their habit. You can see them at the bottom of [url="http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapulars-brown-scapular-of-our-lady-of-mount-carmel.php?gclid=CNuXr5O7s6ACFRgsawodhSUfUA"]this page.[/url]
[/quote]

Ive never seen the 3rd order Carmelites in church but I`ll take that scapular in any way shape or form.


[quote]Istayed with the novitiate for a month at this monastery and wasprivileged to have a look at the archives. I was amazed and fascinatedwith the whips and chains, etc. One of the nuns told me that during thediscipline, it wasn't that uncommon when the nun in front of you wouldmiss her back and hit the sister directly behind her! [img]public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

...religious life of the past must have been filled with "classic convent moments!"[/quote]

Oh my! I can only speculate but I think my reaction would go like this if that happened to me.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' date='12 March 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1268408350' post='2071746']

Oh my! I can only speculate but I think my reaction would go like this if that happened to me.
[/quote]



I think mine would be as follows:

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='12 March 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1268404935' post='2071695']
Did you read the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page? These are "collector's items for display purposes only."
[/quote]

I did read the disclaimer and my reaction was thus:

I almost felt as though that statement was put for "legal" purposes, you know? Maybe so they can't be sued or something...

Also, I read this bit before the pictures:

[quote]The use of the cilice belt or hairshirt must not be undertaken lightly, it is essential that people seek spiritual guidance and instruction before using one. When used within a structured and disciplined prayer life and under the direction of a Parish Priest or spiritual advisor it can be used as an aid to worship. Any such penance performed in a spirit of pride and not humility will surely block us off from God.[/quote]

I give that: and say, "Now that's more like it!"

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='12 March 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1268402910' post='2071679']
Wow... laughing I could get rich! I used to make all of these things for my community! But our Hair shirts were made from horse hair
[/quote]

oh goodness. it must be reallly itchy.

[Nunsense]

We wore night scapulars in Carmel too. That way, one was never without their scapular. We also wore night veils to cover our almost bald heads, especially since England gets very cold in the winter at night, and the heaters were not on at night there.

We used the discipline three times a week but postulants were only allowed to use it once. We did it in the pitch dark and stood in the center of the choir in rows, so no one ever hit anyone else, but it is very weird to hear all that slapping noise in the dark, and not easy to pray out loud while using the discipline at the same time. We also did mortifications in the refectory, such as holding a cross, kneeling in the center, kissing the feet of sisters, etc... all very regulated of course.

I would advise as other have done, only to use such items of penance under direction or obedience, and to be aware that without interior mortifications as well, exterior ones are "the penance of beasts" (St John of the Cross). That being said, I think they are incredibly valuable in helping to subdue the passions, especially self-love, and can be offered up for the good of the Church. I have heard of other penances that are just as effective without any equipment, such as taking cold showers or sleeping on the floor etc. Once again, all should be done unders supervision or spriritual pride can develop.

[truthfinder]

This is kind of an awkward question, but when using the discipline with others, such as in choir, does one just use it over the habit or what?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='truthfinder' date='13 March 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1268456091' post='2072222']
This is kind of an awkward question, but when using the discipline with others, such as in choir, does one just use it over the habit or what?
[/quote]


I don't want to scandalise anyone here, but in the Carmelites I was with we lifted up our habits and used it on our backsides. Some communities might use it on their shoulders if their habits allow for this, but the Carmelites have a pin on their scapular and to get off layers of clothing at the shoulders would be impossible in the time allowed, so that is why it was done in the pitch dark. The shutters were closed to the outside windows, the Sister appointed to the task would stand at the back and turn off the lights and then in the pitch dark the Prioress or Subprioress would start the Miserere or Profundis Dei (depending on the day of the week). We would then lift up our habit from the floor and gather it around our waist, holding onto it with one hand, and holding the discipline in the other. Then we would use the disciple for the space of either psalm followed by a few prayers (for the dead especially). Then in the dark still, we would put our disciplines away in our pockets and then rearrange our habits. One could hear lots of shuffling of clothes as everyone got themselves back together again.

When there was total silence for a minute or so, the Sister at the light would turn it back on again and then we would bow and return to our choir stalls to start the Office (we did this before Matins at night). It was avery private experience between the individual Sister and God, no eye contact with each other, no discussing it, ever, and the only questions allowed were with one's Novice Mistress. She did tell me when she first gave it to me that I was not allowed to injure myself, and that if I ever felt any sexual excitement at any time, I was to stop and to speak with the Prioress about this and perhaps I would be asked to do it on top of my habit or in another place such as the shoulders. It is meant to be a reminder of the scourging of Jesus at the pillar, and should always be seen as sharing in His suffering this way. The depiction of the discipline in such movies as the Da Vinci Code is an insult to religious who only wish to share in the Passion and Suffering of Our Lord. I found it a beautiful reminder of what He endured because, if done hard enough, not to injure, but to truly experience what a scourging must feel like, it makes one very aware of the depth of love that Our Lord has for each one of us. The pain He went through would have been horrific. Anything used properly that can remind us of His great love for us is a good thing.

I wanted to add that when I use it privately now (under spiritual direction) I do it on my bare shoulders, on my knees in the dark. I feel a greater closeness to Him when I do it this way, but each individual should determine what most reminds them of Our Lord's suffering for us.

Edited March 13, 2010 by nunsense

[truthfinder]

Thanks nunsense, that's what I was wondering. I'm pretty sure some of the more austere Passionist convents do it this way as well.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' date='12 March 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1268452740' post='2072198']
We wore night scapulars in Carmel too. That way, one was never without their scapular. We also wore night veils to cover our almost bald heads, especially since England gets very cold in the winter at night, and the heaters were not on at night there.

We used the discipline three times a week but postulants were only allowed to use it once. We did it in the pitch dark and stood in the center of the choir in rows, so no one ever hit anyone else, but it is very weird to hear all that slapping noise in the dark, and not easy to pray out loud while using the discipline at the same time. We also did mortifications in the refectory, such as holding a cross, kneeling in the center, kissing the feet of sisters, etc... all very regulated of course.

I would advise as other have done, only to use such items of penance under direction or obedience, and to be aware that without interior mortifications as well, exterior ones are "the penance of beasts" (St John of the Cross). That being said, I think they are incredibly valuable in helping to subdue the passions, especially self-love, and can be offered up for the good of the Church. I have heard of other penances that are just as effective without any equipment, such as taking cold showers or sleeping on the floor etc. Once again, all should be done unders supervision or spriritual pride can develop.
[/quote]

Dear nunsense... My experiences of Carmel are very close to yours. However i was permitted to use the discipline on my shoulders and back. We also had penances that ranged from kissing the floor, kissing the feet of the sisters, begging our meals, eating in the middle of the floor of the refectory,speaking our faults, prostrating before other when they entered into the refectory, cross prayers with arms extended etc...

Everything was done under obedience and in moderation. What is most important is to have the proper internal dispositions while performng these penances. Humility, obedience, reparation and love were at the center of all these practices. I myself found it easy to enter into my soul while performing such penances and found them useful in deepening my relationship with Chrsit who was meek and humble of heart and obedient unto death.

I am a strong believer in the body participating with the mind, heart and soul as one. Ritual or customary physical expression penetential or not, only fortified my desire to imitate my beloved. So unlike many others who have so called thrown off thee shackles as archaic, i still find true and lasting meaning in them. But love and humility are to me the lynchpins of all these practices.

I am neither afraid to be seen as sign of contradicition nor am i afraid of the opinions of others who eschew these things as masochistic tendencies out of the middle ages.

I am by far no masochist but i do strongly believe in the need for reparation for my own sins and the needs of others. I also find these things as a way of growing in humility. But i agree permission from ones superiors id very important; for without obedience they have no value and in fact may lead to serious faults of pride and excess.



Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

One clarifation... These penances are in no way the center of my religious life but only and adjunct in living it.

I had one prioress who did away with the kissing of the floor upon entering the choir and at the consecration... Mother felt it was undignifed for grown professional women to do so. Yet it was good enough for OHM and all of our Carmelite saints and is in fact a part of our very tradition. For myself only, I can say I am not too big to humble myself before the Lord who was humility himself. Human nature as far as I can see has not changes very much over the centures. and the place of true devotions are still valid.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='13 March 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1268464458' post='2072263']
One clarifation... These penances are in no way the center of my religious life but only and adjunct in living it.

I had one prioress who did away with the kissing of the floor upon entering the choir and at the consecration... Mother felt it was undignifed for grown professional women to do so. Yet it was good enough for OHM and all of our Carmelite saints and is in fact a part of our very tradition. For myself only, I can say I am not too big to humble myself before the Lord who was humility himself. Human nature as far as I can see has not changes very much over the centures. and the place of true devotions are still valid.
[/quote]

I'm with you on this one. I have been in three Carmels, two did not kiss the floor upon entering the choir, and one did. I much preferred the one that did, I felt it was such a beautifully humbling gesture every time I entered the choir. We did it because the Blessed Sacrament is right there as we enter, and that is Our Lord in front of us. That is Jesus. And who wouldn't want to kiss the ground in front of Him? I don't know, it just felt so right.

It reminds me a little of the way people enter a chapel or church when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for Adoration. In some churches they barely bow their hears, and yet in mine now, we kneel on both knees and bow our heads before rising, and the priests do this as well when they position or reposition - it is such a humbling example for us and we all love it. God is awesomely amazing!