HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1281367381' post='2154619'] If I told you that your religious practice was in vain and actually displeased God (the act that you were certain pleased God) You wouldn't take offense? And since when is antisemitism defined by "intense" hatred? [/quote] Yeah I would be annoyed but people have said worse things about the Church. Intense or not, hatred has to be displayed. Do you think Knight and the others here hate Jews? If so, that is a huge accusation and you risk slandering another's character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1281367551' post='2154621'] Yeah I would be annoyed but people have said worse things about the Church. Intense or not, hatred has to be displayed. Do you think Knight and the others here hate Jews? If so, that is a huge accusation and you risk slandering another's character. [/quote] When people say that the Mass is displeasing to God, would you consider that to be an anti-Catholic statement? I was trying to figure out what level of offensive comments to Jews was ok with you. You were the one who said antisemitism was defined by "intense hatred" . By your terms, obviously KoC's statement isn't antisemitic. If you agree that the statement above is anti-Catholic, then you would agree that KoC's statement is antisemitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1281368313' post='2154622'] When people say that the Mass is displeasing to God, would you consider that to be an anti-Catholic statement? I was trying to figure out what level of offensive comments to Jews was ok with you. You were the one who said antisemitism was defined by "intense hatred" . By your terms, obviously KoC's statement isn't antisemitic. If you agree that the statement above is anti-Catholic, then you would agree that KoC's statement is antisemitic. [/quote] Antisemitic is not the same thing as anti-Catholic. Perhaps you are looking for the term anti-Judaism because antisemitic encompasses discrimination against Jews as an ethnic and racial group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1281368757' post='2154625'] Antisemitic is not the same thing as anti-Catholic. Perhaps you are looking for the term anti-Judaism because antisemitic encompasses discrimination against Jews as an ethnic and racial group. [/quote] No I'm more comfortable going with the Church's definition of antisemitism which includes the practices of their faith. Secular definitions fail here. So do you agree that when someone says that the Mass is displeasing to God, that is anti-Catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1281368313' post='2154622'] I was trying to figure out what level of offensive comments to Jews was ok with you. You were the one who said antisemitism was defined by "intense hatred" . By your terms, obviously KoC's statement isn't antisemitic. If you agree that the statement above is anti-Catholic, then you would agree that KoC's statement is antisemitic. [/quote] And do you honestly believe that I think some offensive comments against Jews are okay? Really? Because I used the term "intense hatred"? I was emphasizing the "hatred". I don't appreciate your making such a gross assumption about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1281368901' post='2154626'] No I'm more comfortable going with the Church's definition of antisemitism which includes the practices of their faith. Secular definitions fail here. [/quote] Antisemitism DOES include discrimination against Jews for their religion, but it almost always includes racism. Someone reading your posts might get it in their head that Knight is a racist. [quote] So do you agree that when someone says that the Mass is displeasing to God, that is anti-catholic? [/quote] Yes and no. It is not in line with Church teaching, so it is a false statement. In that sense it is a statement against the Church. So technically speaking it is an anti-Catholic statement. That does not mean the person hates the Church or the Catholic religion however. But when when says "anti-Catholic" traditionally one means a hostile or discriminatory statement against the Church, or a hostile and discriminatory view of the Church as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1281368903' post='2154627'] And do you honestly believe that I think some offensive comments against Jews are okay? Really? Because I used the term "intense hatred"? I was emphasizing the "hatred". I don't appreciate your making such a gross assumption about me. [/quote] I honestly don't know how you feel about Jews. I was simply going by your definition you laid out. If you consider any offensive comments towards Jews to be antisemitic then we're on the same page. But if you agree that someone saying "The Mass is not pleasing to God" is anti-Catholic, then clearly you will see KoC's statement for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1281369341' post='2154630'] I honestly don't know how you feel about Jews. I was simply going by your definition you laid out. If you consider any offensive comments towards Jews to be antisemitic then we're on the same page. But if you agree that someone saying "The Mass is not pleasing to God" is anti-Catholic, then clearly you will see KoC's statement for what it is. [/quote] His statement would best be defined as an anti-Judaism statement (if you want to be so technical) because he was speaking about Judaism as a religion, he was NOT speaking about the Jewish people as an ethnic or racial group. To use antisemitism is to imply that he was also speaking against Jews as a people, which I am absolutely positive was not his intention. He is talking about religion, NOT people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1281369309' post='2154629'] Antisemitism DOES include discrimination against Jews for their religion, but it almost always includes racism. Someone reading your posts might get it in their head that Knight is a racist. [/quote] Then perhaps he should retract is antisemitic statement. [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1281369309' post='2154629'] Yes and no. It is not in line with Church teaching, so it is a false statement. In that sense it is a statement against the Church. So technically speaking it is an anti-Catholic statement. That does not mean the person hates the Church or the Catholic religion however. But when when says "anti-Catholic" traditionally one means a hostile or discriminatory statement against the Church, or a hostile and discriminatory view of the Church as a whole. [/quote] That is the same type of fallacy used by folks who consider themselves pro-life but are ok with abortion in cases of rape and incest. If its yes then its yes. To say "The mass displeases God" is clearly anti-Catholic since the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. Stating that Jewish practices were displeasing to God (which again the Church does not profess) is antisemitic and against Church teachings. again from Nostra Aetate [quote][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone. [/size][/font][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1281369565' post='2154631'] His statement would best be defined as an anti-Judaism statement (if you want to be so technical) because he was speaking about Judaism as a religion, he was NOT speaking about the Jewish people as an ethnic or racial group. To use antisemitism is to imply that he was also speaking against Jews as a people, which I am absolutely positive was not his intention. He is talking about religion, NOT people. [/quote] Since the definition of antisemitism includes religion, his statement is antisemitic. You cannot parse it out again from Nostra Aetate [quote][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15) [/size][/font][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) So if one pointed out that the Old Law was fulfilled in the New Law, that too is antisemitic? It is against the teachings of Judaism and I am sure it would offend a Jewish person. In fact our Church, Who professes to hold the fullness of Truth, offends against all religions with [s]that proclamation[/s] Her proclamation to hold the fullness of Truth. What of that? Where do we draw the line between offending another religion and not offending another religion? Edited August 9, 2010 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1281369756' post='2154632'] That is the same type of fallacy used by folks who consider themselves pro-life but are ok with abortion in cases of rape and incest. If its yes then its yes. [/quote] Absolutely not. I am trying to distinguish between an anti-Judaism comment (which encompasses only religion) and an antisemitic comment (which encompasses ethnicity, race, and religion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) While I consider the statement "the Sacrifice of the Mass is displeasing to God" to be false and even heretical, I would not be personally offended if a non-Catholic told me that, nor would I have any reason just from that statement to think that the person discriminated against Catholics. Rather, it would merely be logically consistent with the beliefs of nearly every non-Catholic proselytizing religion to state that worship contrary to the dictates of the religion is displeasing to God, or, in the case of non-monotheistic religions, god(s). In a like manner, I would not be offended if someone told me that I am going to hell for being Catholic, provided that he did so politely and with no malice. If a person sincerely believes that membership in his religion is necessary for salvation, then it is only logically consistent for that person to believe members of other religions will not obtain salvation and that it is necessary to work for their conversion to his religion. As a person who firmly believes that non-Catholic worship is displeasing to God and that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation, it is only logically consistent for me not to offended by those of other religions who have similar beliefs since I would not want them to be offended by mine. Edited August 9, 2010 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I remember a conversation about this a while back. Aloysius said that he would expect the Jews to pray for our conversion as much as we would for theirs. If one of us is right, then truth will prevail! Either one of us--in the entirety of our rites--is correct in belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1281370342' post='2154636'] So if one pointed out that the Old Law was fulfilled in the New Law, that too is antisemitic? It is against the teachings of Judaism and I am sure it would offend a Jewish person. In fact our Church, Who professes to hold the fullness of Truth, offends against all religions with [s]that proclamation[/s] Her proclamation to hold the fullness of Truth. What of that? Where do we draw the line between offending another religion and not offending another religion? [/quote] the Church is where we draw the line. That is where we always go. The Holy Father would never say "the acts of the Jewish faith displeases God" because the Church does not teach that. The Church professes to hold the Fullness of the truth but also says that other faiths should be respected as well. You can't walk away with only part of what the Church teaches about other faiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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