Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1281379799' post='2154750'] A pity there was [s]no[/s] error. Or rather, thanks be to God that Knight is an [s]orthodox[/s] traditional Catholic who loves Mother Church. [/quote] Then he should have no problem following her teachings and recognizing his error.
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1281379722' post='2154749'] ... which is not what HCF said. Come one, why be like that. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] [/quote] I wasn't suggesting that she felt that way. I was saying that I was (aside from correcting all of you) hoping that KoC would come back and realize the error and retract his antisemitic statement.
Maggyie Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 I think the root of the problem lies in the characterization of Jewish worship as "displeasing." As though God is actively annoyed or angered by their celebration of Passover. The Church says clearly in some very important documents that non-Christian religions, in their attempts to offer true worship to God as they understand Him, have some fragments of light, even if they are merely rays reflected from the fullness of Truth. I think it's more orthodox, and much more Catholic, to say that God is pleased by their desire to please Him, but He would be much better pleased by their conversion and adherence to the full Truth as found in His Church.
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1281379478' post='2154742'] No one said that God has changed. Please provide the quote where that was stated. Thank you. [/quote] Please and thank you.
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1281379973' post='2154753'] I wasn't suggesting that she felt that way. I was saying that I was (aside from correcting all of you) hoping that KoC would come back and realize the error and retract his antisemitic statement. [/quote] We do not believe that his statement was either against Church teaching, or anti-semitic. You clearly do believe so. What is the point in repeating our points over and over again without supporting them with arguments? I simply fear that this is going to turn into a flame war instead of a debate. Edited August 9, 2010 by Bennn
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1281379854' post='2154751'] Then he should have no problem following her teachings and recognizing his error. [/quote] I am confident in saying that he follows Her teachings to the fullest.
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1281380137' post='2154758'] I am confident in saying that he follows Her teachings to the fullest. [/quote] I have no doubt he tries.
Sojourner Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Maggie' date='09 August 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1281380007' post='2154754'] I think the root of the problem lies in the characterization of Jewish worship as "displeasing." As though God is actively annoyed or angered by their celebration of Passover. The Church says clearly in some very important documents that non-Christian religions, in their attempts to offer true worship to God as they understand Him, have some fragments of light, even if they are merely rays reflected from the fullness of Truth. I think it's more orthodox, and much more Catholic, to say that God is pleased by their desire to please Him, but He would be much better pleased by their conversion and adherence to the full Truth as found in His Church. [/quote] I agree with this. I was also a little uncomfortable with Knight's statement that these practices do not please God, because it has been my understanding that Catholic belief allows for the possibility of salvation for those who worship God in Truth to the degree they know it. I'm not sure I would have characterized his statement as anti-semitic, but it doesn't quite comport with Catholic teaching as I understand it.
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Look this is pretty easy folks If you would like to find anything professed by the Church that states that God is displeased by the practices of Jewish faith, I'll shut up. You won't be able to because the Church has never ever made that statement. Nor will it ever. [quote]To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." [/quote] God is not displeased. The Church states it and it is NOT my interpretation. *edit (not that I need to note this) If you can argue against the Catechism quote listed, I'll absolutely shut up. Otherwise I will point out when someone is making a statement that is contrary to Church teaching and is antisemitic on top of that.
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Maggie' date='09 August 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1281380007' post='2154754'] I think the root of the problem lies in the characterization of Jewish worship as "displeasing." As though God is actively annoyed or angered by their celebration of Passover. The Church says clearly in some very important documents that non-Christian religions, in their attempts to offer true worship to God as they understand Him, have some fragments of light, even if they are merely rays reflected from the fullness of Truth. I think it's more orthodox, and much more Catholic, to say that God is pleased by their desire to please Him, but He would be much better pleased by their conversion and adherence to the full Truth as found in His Church. [/quote] Wilfull or invincible ignorance are the criteria to distinguish whether those acts are pleasing to God or not.
Apotheoun Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Christ fulfilled the Old Law, as St. Leo the Great said, and so the old rituals are devoid of grace, which means that they are not to be celebrated any longer. Christ's sacrifice alone is acceptable to God the Father, and the Church's liturgy is the remembrance of Christ's saving deeds.
MithLuin Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Ah. So, as long as the Russian Jews are not being willfully ignorant of the worship desired by God, then it is pleasing to God when they celebrate the Passover meal. That is good to know. And if we want them to become aware of the teachings of the Christian faith, one small token of evangelization would be to provide material charity for them. For those living in poverty, words of love without deeds would seem empty indeed, and for those shivering in the cold, the truth alone might seem a bit cold. Love and truth are both essential components of our faith; you can't neglect either one. In THIS case, one suggestion has been to provide them with a gift basket to allow them to celebrate their own faith as best they know how. It's hardly the only way. One could contribute to CNEWA, which would provide assistance to those in Russia and nearby countries. [url=http://www.cnewa.org/donate-projectlist-us.aspx?locationID=17]HERE[/url] are CNEWA's current projects in Georgia.
Apotheoun Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 There is no grace in the rituals of the Old Law, and so they are not a means of salvation, nor are they a means of true worship (oορθο δόξα) directed to the Holy Trinity. The only acceptable act of worship was made by Christ the Lord, and it is perpetually remembered in the Church's liturgy.
Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Maggie' date='09 August 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1281380007' post='2154754'] I think the root of the problem lies in the characterization of Jewish worship as "displeasing." As though God is actively annoyed or angered by their celebration of Passover. The Church says clearly in some very important documents that non-Christian religions, in their attempts to offer true worship to God as they understand Him, have some fragments of light, even if they are merely rays reflected from the fullness of Truth. I think it's more orthodox, and much more Catholic, to say that God is pleased by their desire to please Him, but He would be much better pleased by their conversion and adherence to the full Truth as found in His Church. [/quote] Hassan likes this.
Lilllabettt Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) Good grief! Such awkward legalism! Next there will be a discussion of different kinds of willful ignorance; how their extent can be demonstrated, measured, etc. I don't know any non-Catholics who wouldn't run away from the Church screaming from all this. Really its horrific. Edited August 9, 2010 by Lilllabettt
Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='09 August 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1281383604' post='2154788'] Good grief! Such awkward legalism! Next there will be a discussion of different kinds of willful ignorance; how their extent can be demonstrated, measured, etc. I don't know any non-Catholics who wouldn't run away from the Church screaming from all this. Really it horrific. [/quote] Hassan likes this.
cmotherofpirl Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 On Jan 9, 1939 Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli ( the future Pope Pius XII) sent a letter to 61 bishops regarding helping the jews "Cardinal Pacelli specifically requested in his letter: "Care should be taken that sanctuaries are provided to safeguard their spiritual welfare and to protect their religious cult, customs and traditions." On December 31, 1986 Pope John Paul II said" There is one other event which transcends the limits of the year, since it is measured in centuries and millennia in the history of this city and of this Church. I thank Divine Providence that I was able to visit our "elder brothers" in the faith of Abraham in their Roman Synagogue! Blessed be the God of our fathers! The God of peace! I'd like to think this charity simply doing the same as this uncanonized saints did: "love one another as I have loved you". The jews are our elder brothers in the faith.If the organization checks out they will get some money from me.
ThePenciledOne Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='09 August 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1281383604' post='2154788'] Good grief! Such awkward legalism! Next there will be a discussion of different kinds of willful ignorance; how their extent can be demonstrated, measured, etc. I don't know any non-Catholics who wouldn't run away from the Church screaming from all this. Really its horrific. [/quote] [quote name='Hassan' date='09 August 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1281383732' post='2154789'] Hassan likes this. [/quote] I do too.
Apotheoun Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='09 August 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1281383604' post='2154788'] Good grief! Such awkward legalism! Next there will be a discussion of different kinds of willful ignorance; how their extent can be demonstrated, measured, etc. I don't know any non-Catholics who wouldn't run away from the Church screaming from all this. Really its horrific. [/quote] It has nothing to do with legalism, which is really a problem of the modern Roman Church since it is constantly altering its liturgy through legal enactments, but rather it concerns dogma. Christ is the sole Savior of the world, and He offered the only acceptable oblation when He became incarnate, suffered, died, and rose again from the dead.
Tridenteen Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 JMJ And so it was that after 24 hrs of peace, the bubonic plague returned to phatmass. The end
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