Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='09 August 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1281370511' post='2154638'] As a person who firmly believes that non-Catholic worship is displeasing to God and that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation, it is only logically consistent for me not to offended by those of other religions who have similar beliefs since I would not want them to be offended by mine. [/quote] If you believe that Jewish practices are displeasing to God, that is your right to hold an antisemitic view. However it is not in line with Church teaching . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1281370633' post='2154640'] the Church is where we draw the line. That is where we always go. The Holy Father would never say "the acts of the Jewish faith displeases God" because the Church does not teach that. The Church professes to hold the Fullness of the truth but also says that other faiths should be respected as well. You can't walk away with only part of what the Church teaches about other faiths. [/quote] The Church teaches that the Old Law has been fulfilled, no? Which is why She does not celebrate Jewish holy days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1281370488' post='2154637'] Absolutely not. I am trying to distinguish between an anti-Judaism comment (which encompasses only religion) and an antisemitic comment (which encompasses ethnicity, race, and religion). [/quote] If a person claims to be pro-life but is ok with abortion in cases of rape and incest, they are in reality pro-choice. If a person claims that they are not antisemitic because they are ok with the race and ethnicity but make offensive statements about the Jewish faith practices, they are still being antisemitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Like I mentioned before, making a statement that the rites of Jewish worship have become devoid of grace is not in any way anti-semitic. It is rather an act of charity towards the Jews because it is an attempt to bring them to the salvific Mystery of Christ. We cannot win others over to Christ if we do not point out to them that the service they are already bringing is fruitless. I do not believe my point of view to be contradictory to the quotes from Nostra Aetate which you have used in your arguments. If I try to refute a Jew's statement that the Mass is, according to them, displeasing to God, then I do this because their statement is false. I would not take it as an attack against my ethnicity, but rather as an attack against the honour of God. The fault with the argument lies in the fact that the Mass is pleasing to God and the old Mosaïc rites are not because they have found their fulfillment in the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is a matter of objective truth, and such a truth cannot be changed for the sake of not offending anyone. I can tell you with certainty that I have no hatred against the descendants of Israël, and that I have a deep respect for their link with the patriarchs and the prophets. But charity witholds me from encouraging them to continue empty service which does not bring upon their souls the salvific grace of Christ's work of Redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tridenteen Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 JMJ The Church teaches that when the Veil in the Temple ripped in half, the was the sign that the Old Law had been fufilled. That is why Catholics do not observe Jewish practices. Is this going to be another one of those threads that goes down Niagra Falls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1281371117' post='2154646'] Like I mentioned before, making a statement that the rites of Jewish worship have become devoid of grace is not in any way anti-semitic. It is rather an act of charity towards the Jews because it is an attempt to bring them to the salvific Mystery of Christ. We cannot win others over to Christ if we do not point out to them that the service they are already bringing is fruitless. I do not believe my point of view to be contradictory to the quotes from Nostra Aetate which you have used in your arguments. If I try to refute a Jew's statement that the Mass is, according to them, displeasing to God, then I do this because their statement is false. I would not take it as an attack against my ethnicity, but rather as an attack against the honour of God. The fault with the argument lies in the fact that the Mass is pleasing to God and the old Mosaïc rites are not because they have found their fulfillment in the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is a matter of objective truth, and such a truth cannot be changed for the sake of not offending anyone. I can tell you with certainty that I have no hatred against the descendants of Israël, and that I have a deep respect for their link with the patriarchs and the prophets. But charity witholds me from encouraging them to continue empty service which does not bring upon their souls the salvific grace of Christ's work of Redemption. [/quote] This is a good point. I am not going to spend my life walking on eggshells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1281371117' post='2154646'] Like I mentioned before, making a statement that the rites of Jewish worship have become devoid of grace is not in any way anti-semitic. It is rather an act of charity towards the Jews because it is an attempt to bring them to the salvific Mystery of Christ. We cannot win others over to Christ if we do not point out to them that the service they are already bringing is fruitless. I do not believe my point of view to be contradictory to the quotes from Nostra Aetate which you have used in your arguments. If I try to refute a Jew's statement that the Mass is, according to them, displeasing to God, then I do this because their statement is false. I would not take it as an attack against my ethnicity, but rather as an attack against the honour of God. The fault with the argument lies in the fact that the Mass is pleasing to God and the old Mosaïc rites are not because they have found their fulfillment in the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is a matter of objective truth, and such a truth cannot be changed for the sake of not offending anyone. I can tell you with certainty that I have no hatred against the descendants of Israël, and that I have a deep respect for their link with the patriarchs and the prophets. But charity witholds me from encouraging them to continue empty service which does not bring upon their souls the salvific grace of Christ's work of Redemption. [/quote] Thank you, Bennn, for this excellent post. You speak the truth in charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Tridenteen' date='09 August 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1281371166' post='2154648'] JMJ The Church teaches that when the Veil in the Temple ripped in half, the was the sign that the Old Law had been fufilled. That is why Catholics do not observe Jewish practices. Is this going to be another one of those threads that goes down Niagra Falls? [/quote] As long as people are being called anti-Semitic for being Catholic, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1281371117' post='2154646'] Like I mentioned before, making a statement that the rites of Jewish worship have become devoid of grace is not in any way anti-semitic. It is rather an act of charity towards the Jews because it is an attempt to bring them to the salvific Mystery of Christ. We cannot win others over to Christ if we do not point out to them that the service they are already bringing is fruitless. I do not believe my point of view to be contradictory to the quotes from Nostra Aetate which you have used in your arguments. If I try to refute a Jew's statement that the Mass is, according to them, displeasing to God, then I do this because their statement is false. I would not take it as an attack against my ethnicity, but rather as an attack against the honour of God. The fault with the argument lies in the fact that the Mass is pleasing to God and the old Mosaïc rites are not because they have found their fulfillment in the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is a matter of objective truth, and such a truth cannot be changed for the sake of not offending anyone. I can tell you with certainty that I have no hatred against the descendants of Israël, and that I have a deep respect for their link with the patriarchs and the prophets. But charity witholds me from encouraging them to continue empty service which does not bring upon their souls the salvific grace of Christ's work of Redemption. [/quote] The Old Testament sacraments could not "become devoid of Grace" they never possessed grace to begin with . But that is not what KoC said. He said that they displeased God. This means that Old Testament practices are offensive to God. The Church does not teach that and I've shown that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:23 PM' timestamp='1281371030' post='2154645'] If a person claims to be pro-life but is ok with abortion in cases of rape and incest, they are in reality pro-choice. If a person claims that they are not antisemitic because they are ok with the race and ethnicity but make offensive statements about the Jewish faith practices, they are still being antisemitic. [/quote] Or you could use the term anti-Judaism, i.e. an anti-Judaism comment, because the comment was just concerning religion. As pointed out, the term antisemitic is almost always used to describe someone racist against the Jewish people. Why not use the former term, which is more specific to your purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='09 August 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1281371317' post='2154651'] As long as people are being called anti-Semitic for being Catholic, yes. [/quote] The Church has never taught that Old Testament practices displease or offend God. Catholics in line with Church teaching would not make such a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1281371522' post='2154655'] Or you could use the term anti-Judaism, i.e. an anti-Judaism comment, because the comment was just concerning religion. As pointed out, the term antisemitic is almost always used to describe someone racist against the Jewish people. Why not use the former term, which is more specific to your purpose? [/quote] Well then you agree that it can also be called antisemitic. So since I'm correct in using that term, I'll continue to say KoC's comment was antisemitic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1281371448' post='2154654'] The Old Testament sacraments could not "become devoid of Grace" they never possessed grace to begin with . [u]But that is not what KoC said. He said that they displeased God. This means that Old Testament practices are offensive to God.[/u] The Church does not teach that and I've shown that. [/quote] You are misrepresenting his comment. Post #52: "[u]The religious practices of the Old Law [b]once pleased God,[/b][/u] that is no longer so, and such practices are now in vain and do not please God. Only the worship of Mother Church pleases God." Knight NEVER said that the OT practices displeased God period or that they were offensive to God. He said that they once did please God, but now they do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1281371666' post='2154657'] Well then you agree that it can also be called antisemitic. So since I'm correct in using that term, I'll continue to say KoC's comment was antisemitic [/quote] I am simply asking why you choose to use the term that encompasses religion, ethnicity, and race as opposed to the term that encompasses only religion, the latter a more accurate description of his comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Hitler didn't just go after practicing Jews. Antisemitism never made a distinction between Jews as an ethnicity (we should say ethnicities, because there are several Jewish ethnic subdivisions) and the Jewish religion. Particularly in Christendom, hatred of people who were ethnically Jewish and hatred of the Jewish religion were interlinked and mutually reinforcing. Jews were cursed by God for their blood-guilt, whether a Jew kept the Sabbath or not had no impact on the 'fact' that God's curse was upon him and his people. Jews as an ethnicity were hated because the seperated themselves from the goyem and had a lot 'weird' practices that kept them from assimilating from with the larger culture. This was one of the major justifications for official antisemitism (of which the Final Solution was merely the grand finale). Similar to anti-Catholic nativism in the 19th century or hatred of Muslims today. The reform movement was a Jewish effort to dodge anti-semitism by adopting Christian culture and integrating some of it into Jewish worship. Obviously it had mixed succuss. By point is that distinguishing between anti-Judaism (as hatred of the Jewish religion or the Jews for their religion) and anti-semitism (as hatred of an ethnicity) doesn't really make sense to me. Judaism itself really doesn't make a distinction and neither has antisemitism. That being said, I would not consider Knights statement antisemetic. Yes, it lacked tact in how it was expressed, but it wasn't antisemetic. Anymore than Christianity itself is antisemetic (a discussion for another day). I'm sure an Orthodox Jew would say that the 'idolatry' involved in celebrating the Eucharist is displeasing to God. I wouldn't call that anti-Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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