Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I think that the Anti-Defamation League is part of the problem here. They are so hyper-sensitive and politically driven that if somebody sneezes in a Jew's direction they start screaming antisemitism. I think their activism has led a lot of Americans to be far to sensitive about saying anything critical about anything Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Hassan' date='09 August 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1281371827' post='2154661'] By point is that distinguishing between anti-Judaism (as hatred of the Jewish religion or the Jews for their religion) and anti-semitism (as hatred of an ethnicity) doesn't really make sense to me. Judaism itself really doesn't make a distinction and neither has antisemitism. [/quote] Anti-Judaism is, technically speaking, against Judaism. Or contrary to Judaism. At least that is how I am using it. Antisemitism has way more negative connotations, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1281371448' post='2154654'] The Old Testament sacraments could not "become devoid of Grace" they never possessed grace to begin with . But that is not what KoC said. He said that they displeased God. This means that Old Testament practices are offensive to God. The Church does not teach that and I've shown that. [/quote] I do believe that the Church teaches that God cannot be pleased without Christ. The Jews do not accept the gift of salvation given to mankind by Jesus Christ by receiving Baptism and participating in the true worship in spirit and truth, which is the Divine Liturgy, where the eternal Sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated on the altar. I believe that it is Church teaching that it is displeasing to God to stick to types and shadows of anticipation, when the true Gift is already here. The Old Testamentic practices were pleasing to God because they anticipated the coming of the Christ, Who would bring them to fulfillment. But now, going back to these practices or stubbornly sticking to them is offensive to the Lord, because the fulfillment has already taken place in the death and resurrection of Christ. Saint Paul, for example, said that if one goes to receive circumcision, Christ will be of no help to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1281371673' post='2154658'] You are misrepresenting his comment. Post #52: "[u]The religious practices of the Old Law [b]once pleased God,[/b][/u] that is no longer so, and such practices are now in vain and do not please God. Only the worship of Mother Church pleases God." Knight NEVER said that the OT practices displeased God period or that they were offensive to God. He said that they once did please God, but now they do not. [/quote] Since the OT practices have not changed, but God is now offended by them, then KoC is saying that God has changed. This is the crux of his problem. It is dogmatically taught that God is immutable. He is eternally unchanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1281372464' post='2154667'] Since the OT practices have not changed, but God is now offended by them, then KoC is saying that God has changed. This is the crux of his problem. It is dogmatically taught that God is immutable. He is eternally unchanging. [/quote] I think Knight is saying that since the Old has been fulfilled in the New, the practices of the New (i.e. the Mass) supersede those of the Old (i.e. Passover). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1281372648' post='2154669'] I think Knight is saying that since the Old has been fulfilled in the New, the practices of the New (i.e. the Mass) supersede those of the Old (i.e. Passover). [/quote] If he had said that, we wouldn't be discussing anything at all. The truth is that OT practices brought about lawful purity (which is pleasing to God) and the institution of the Church was the fullfillment of the promises of OT. Stating that the Fullness of the Truth is Most pleasing to God is what the Church teaches. Stating that at the institution of the Church, God has changed in some way, is wrong. He says that OT practices now displease God. He's wrong on several theological points and is making antisemitic statements. I'm trying to correct the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1281373280' post='2154673'] If he had said that, we wouldn't be discussing anything at all. The truth is that OT practices brought about lawful purity (which is pleasing to God) and the institution of the Church was the fullfillment of the promises of OT. Stating that the Fullness of the Truth is Most pleasing to God is what the Church teaches. Stating that at the institution of the Church, God has changed in some way, is wrong. He says that OT practices now displease God. He's wrong on several theological points and is making antisemitic statements. I'm trying to correct the error. [/quote] Is it just insufficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Hassan' date='09 August 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1281373335' post='2154674'] Is it just insufficient? [/quote] The practices of the Old testament? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1281372464' post='2154667'] Since the OT practices have not changed, but God is now offended by them, then KoC is saying that God has changed. This is the crux of his problem. It is dogmatically taught that God is immutable. He is eternally unchanging. [/quote] God has not changed. The context has. In anticipation of the Dawn of salvation, adhering the old Mosaïc rites is pleasing to God. In the time wherein those rites have been brought to fulfillment, it is no longer pleasing to Him to adhere to them, because God has shown us how He wants to be worshipped through Divine Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1281373280' post='2154673'] If he had said that, we wouldn't be discussing anything at all. The truth is that OT practices brought about lawful purity (which is pleasing to God) and the institution of the Church was the fullfillment of the promises of OT. Stating that the Fullness of the Truth is Most pleasing to God is what the Church teaches. [/quote] Knight would not disagree with this. [quote] Stating that at the institution of the Church, God has changed in some way, is wrong. [/quote] Knight would agree with this. [quote] He says that OT practices now displease God. He's wrong on several theological points and is making antisemitic statements. I'm trying to correct the error. [/quote] He said that the practices would displease God now because they have been rendered unnecessary by the fulfillment of the Old Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1281373490' post='2154675'] The practices of the Old testament? Yes [/quote] Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1281373598' post='2154677'] Knight would not disagree with this. Knight would agree with this. He said that the practices would displease God now because they have been rendered unnecessary by the fulfillment of the Old Law. [/quote] Well he hasn't agreed or disagreed with anything as far as I've seen. For all we know, he could come back later and apologize for his antisemitic remark and realize he was in error by suggesting that God was not immutable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1281373822' post='2154680'] Well he hasn't agreed or disagreed with anything as far as I've seen. For all we know, he could come back later and apologize for his antisemitic remark and realize he was in error by suggesting that God was not immutable. [/quote] You are putting words into his mouth by claiming he said God is changeable. I have seen no such post of his even coming close to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1281373892' post='2154682'] You are putting words into his mouth by claiming he said God is changeable. I have seen no such post of his even coming close to that. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1281373553' post='2154676'] God has not changed. The context has. In anticipation of the Dawn of salvation, adhering the old Mosaïc rites is pleasing to God. In the time wherein those rites have been brought to fulfillment, it is no longer pleasing to Him to adhere to them, because God has shown us how He wants to be worshipped through Divine Revelation. [/quote] So you are saying that when both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI placed their prayers in the wailing wall, this displeased God? Both the popes would disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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