jeffpugh Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1281374094' post='2154686'] So you are saying that when both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI placed their prayers in the wailing wall, this displeased God? Both the popes would disagree with you. [/quote] I would not say that they are doing an old ritual. They are making a public act of prayer at a significant location to the Jews--the old temple wall. For all we know, it is for their conversion anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1281373892' post='2154682'] You are putting words into his mouth by claiming he said God is changeable. I have seen no such post of his even coming close to that. [/quote] Nope its his words and his logic is flawed and against Church teaching. He said that God was once pleased by Jewish practices and now is displeased by them. If the practices have not changed, then God has to. God is immutable so therefore KoC is mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1281374256' post='2154690'] Nope its his words and his logic is flawed and against Church teaching. He said that God was once pleased by Jewish practices and now is displeased by them. If the practices have not changed, then God has to. God is immutable so therefore KoC is mistaken. [/quote] Yes, because the Old Law has been fulfilled. Would God be pleased if we slaughtered a lamb in His honor in a Jewish temple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1281374256' post='2154690'] Nope its his words and his logic is flawed and against Church teaching. He said that God was once pleased by Jewish practices and now is displeased by them. If the practices have not changed, then God has to. God is immutable so therefore KoC is mistaken. [/quote] That is not at all what he said. He did not say that God changed. He said that the context changed. There is a great difference between those two statements. We should always seek the opinion of the full Magisterium of the Church. The Apostolic See has always taught that we, as Catholics, are not to participate in rituals that do not belong to the new Covenant, which Christ has established with His Sacred Blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Moreover, circumcision was a practice required by the Old Law but it was not required by the New. Or is the Bible wrong, because God apparently changed His mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1281374705' post='2154696'] Moreover, circumcision was a practice required by the Old Law but it was not required by the New. Or is the Bible wrong, because God apparently changed His mind? [/quote] Exactly. This is the reason I quoted Saint Paul where he said: "He who goes to receive circumcision, cuts himself off from Christ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1281374678' post='2154695'] That is not at all what he said. He did not say that God changed. He said that the context changed. There is a great difference between those two statements. We should always seek the opinion of the full Magisterium of the Church. The Apostolic See has always taught that we, as Catholics, are not to participate in rituals that do not belong to the new Covenant, which Christ has established with His Sacred Blood. [/quote] Well that's not what he said at all. Regardless, his statement that God is displeased with the Jewish practices is not according to Church teachings and is antisemitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1281377019' post='2154714'] Well that's not what he said at all. Regardless, his statement that God is displeased with the Jewish practices is not according to Church teachings and is antisemitic. [/quote] His statement, read in the right context, is in accord with Church teaching and is not anti-semitic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 i thought this was about helping Jews celebrate their rituals, not participating in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1281377019' post='2154714'] Well that's not what he said at all. Regardless, his statement that God is displeased with the Jewish practices is not according to Church teachings and is antisemitic. [/quote] The requirement of circumcision has changed. A law of God changed. The requirement to slaughter an animal has changed. A law of God changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 August 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1281377219' post='2154717'] The requirement of circumcision has changed. A law of God changed. The requirement to slaughter an animal has changed. A law of God changed. [/quote] thanks for the update. Its a little late for me tbh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='09 August 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1281377137' post='2154715'] His statement, read in the right context, is in accord with Church teaching and is not anti-semitic. [/quote] NO it is not. It is not within Church teaching and I've demonstrated that. Please read the whole thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1281377415' post='2154718'] thanks for the update. Its a little late for me tbh.. [/quote] Do you not understand the point I am making? The New Law has [u]fulfilled[/u] (NOT changed) the Old Law. Certain practices are no longer necessary or required. That was what Knight said. Slaughtering an animal today for God would displease God because we already have the perfect sacrifice i.e. the Mass. You are getting on Knight's case because you insist that he implied God is changeable. But that is not what Knight said, nor implied. I illustrated his point further by my two examples of Old laws that have been [u]fulfilled[/u]. If you agree with me that it would displease God to slaughter an animal for Him right now, then you are agreeing that a law of God has been "changed" (better word: fulfilled). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='09 August 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1281377480' post='2154719'] NO it is not. It is not within Church teaching and I've demonstrated that. Please read the whole thread [/quote] I did read, and provided you with counterarguments. I do not believe that your quotes from Nostra Aetate contradict Knight's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 (edited) [s]As a footnote, I'll add that anti-Semitism is not limited merely to the hatred of the Jewish/Hebrew people, but also includes of all the Semitic peoples, including Arabs and Assyrians (i.e., Iraqis, Syrians, etc.).[/s] Edit: after a bit of research, I have debunked my own claim as false. Cf: http://middleeastinfo.org/library/lewis_antisemitism.html Edited August 9, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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