Institutionalization Of The Gospel

[Era Might]

This thread began in a previous thread, which you can read here:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103287&st=0

If you would like to continue discussing the topic of institutionalization, post in this thread.

This thread is for serious discussion, so please ignore any posts that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

[Jaime]

unless you're a fat repressed homosexual.

or an assumed one

[HisChildForever]

[quote]whom we create for amusement and comfort[/quote]

Christianity is not about comfort. No person who truly follows Christ expects to live in comfort. Also, what do you mean by amusement? How does God "amuse" us?

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 March 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1269145543' post='2076727']
Christianity is not about comfort. No person who truly follows Christ expects to live in comfort. Also, what do you mean by amusement? How does God "amuse" us?
[/quote]
The original thread kind of developed into a different topic than the original post.

[HisChildForever]

Sigh.

Can you unban me in the chat by the way??

[Era Might]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 March 2010 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1269145718' post='2076731']
Sigh.

Can you unban me in the chat by the way??
[/quote]


I'm not in the chat, but I will go there and ask them to unban you.

[HisChildForever]

About the lack of miracles in the world, or what you perceive to be a lack of miracles -

Miracles still exist, we are just too "busy" or too swamped in technology (you know, the two friends walking down the street together, but each on their phone texting someone else?) to notice them.

[HisChildForever]

If you want to point to the Church as an institution, I would say that people have turned it into an institution to suit themselves. Sort of how "cafeteria" Catholics turn Catholicism into a religion to suit themselves. Does that mean the Church is an institution? No, it means that some people have been abusing the Truth of the Church for their own interests.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 March 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1269146103' post='2076740']
About the lack of miracles in the world, or what you perceive to be a lack of miracles -

Miracles still exist, we are just too "busy" or too swamped in technology (you know, the two friends walking down the street together, but each on their phone texting someone else?) to notice them.
[/quote]

bullllllllllho ky

you know it and I know it


There is no god, you know this on some level, as do I.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hassan' date='21 March 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1269155768' post='2076772']
bullllllllllho ky

you know it and I know it


There is no god, you know this on some level, as do I.
[/quote]
You're usually better than this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 March 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1269156488' post='2076776']
You're usually better than this.
[/quote]
I disagree. This is classic Hassan. Check out his rant in connection with his inability to spell the word "Balkan" correctly.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103703&view=findpost&p=2076334"]Hassan's rant[/url]

P.S. - It is interesting that he misspelled the word "accomplishments" in his ad hominem attack in that post.

[Apotheoun]

The Church, like any social organization, is an institution, and I see no reason to lament this fact, but what I do dislike is the bureaucratic mentality that prevails in the Church today. The Church is a family, and as a family it has a social structure, which according to scripture and tradition is hierarchical in nature (see 1 Cor. 12).

"Let all respect the deacons as representing Jesus Christ, the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as God's high council and as the Apostolic college. Apart from these, no church deserves the name."

+ St. Ignatios of Antioch

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 March 2010 - 03:28 AM' timestamp='1269156488' post='2076776']
You're usually better than this.
[/quote]


Yeah I was very drunk. I'm actually quite sorry about this one.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='21 March 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1269184691' post='2076895']
I disagree. This is classic Hassan. Check out his rant in connection with his inability to spell the word "Balkan" correctly.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103703&view=findpost&p=2076334"]Hassan's rant[/url]

P.S. - It is interesting that he misspelled the word "accomplishments" in his ad hominem attack in that post.
[/quote]

that is not a rant. I really don't care that I spell poorly and I really do feel pity for you. If I was ranting and trying to be hurtful there is plenty I could have added or said differently.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='21 March 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1269186415' post='2076916']
that is not a rant. I really don't care that I spell poorly and I really do feel pity for you. If I was ranting and trying to be hurtful there is plenty I could have added or said differently.
[/quote]
Typical Hassan.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='21 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1269187221' post='2076925']
Typical Hassan.
[/quote]


Llllllloooollllllll!!!!!!!!!!

You got me!!!!!

[Seven77]

Back on topic...

1. Era, the Church is a Divine Institution with a Divine nature and a human* nature.

2. The heirarchy is at the service of the charisms.

*because her Members are human.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Seven77' date='21 March 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1269198617' post='2076995']
Back on topic...

1. Era, the Church is a Divine Institution with a Divine nature and a human* nature.

2. The heirarchy is at the service of the charisms.

*because her Members are human.
[/quote]
I would agree with that.

And I think that's an interesting way of putting it, that the hierarchy is "at the service of the charisms." The problem, however, when the Church functions as an institution, is that the Church ceases to be a facilitator of charisms, and instead the Church attempts to control and insure charisms/vocation.

So, let me propose a hypothetical example. Suppose someone has a charism for charity (I suppose someone can have a unique charism for charity...ala St. Francis). And suppose this person attracts other people to this charism, and thus begins a new religious life. What should be the hierarchy's role? As the Church functions now, this new religious life would become a new institution, a new religious order in the Church. Because institutions breed more institutions, this new religious order will probably be founding more institutions (hospitals, institutional charities, etc.). Thus, the charism which began with a person has now become divorced from a person and has become an institution, which the Church now manages (because the religious order is attached to the wider ecclesial institution).

In this example, I do not believe that the hierarchy should be creating institutional religious orders. I believe that the hierarchy's role is to be spiritual fathers to individual persons with charisms. The Bishop or Priest should speak with those people, should perhaps put them through a spiritual test, should test them in their fidelity to Christ. And after this test, the person should have the freedom to exercise their charism (even with others) without turning the charism into an ecclesial institution. In this way, we see how both the hierarchy's role and the freedom of the individual are both preserved, without creating an institutional dynamic in the Church.

This is just one hypothetical example. It doesn't exhaust what I'm getting at when I say that the Church should not function as an institution. But it's a useful example that comes to mind at the moment.

Another example is St. Paul's teaching on the veiling of women in Church:

[quote]If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.

--1Corinthians 11:16[/quote]
Note how he doesn't lay down a law. Rather, he speaks in terms of "recognition." An institutionalized Church, like that of the West, can only function in terms of law, obligation, coercion, etc. But this passage from St. Paul shows how the early Church functioned in terms of witness. He is in effect saying, "This is how the Churches do this, not because of an institutional law, but because we are bearing witness to what we have received, and we cannot bear a different witness." This is a profoundly beautiful witness that is demanding, but that does not turn the Church's life into an institutional organization. In an institution, the institution tries to preserve things, and inevitably those things are divorced from the context of individual persons. In the early Church, each person took responsibility for their faith, because what held them together was the bonds of faith, hope, and charity. An institutionalized Church is held together by the impersonal institution. As the institution grows and grows and grows, the people become less and less attached by faith, hope, and charity. The Church ceases to be a supernatural family, and instead it becomes a social institution that binds people together. The faith ceases to be a personal act, and instead it becomes an object. This process of institutionalization is seen clearly in modern schooling institutions, which treat knowledge like an object that you give to someone else. Knowledge has ceased to be rooted in a personal search for wisdom, and has instead become a disembodied object that is "taught." Religious education perpetuates this by turning the faith into an institution called "Sunday school." In the early Church, becoming Christian meant being immersed into a supernatural family. Now, becoming a Christian means doing just enough to graduate from the schooling institution that you are put through. Becoming Christian has become a process of incorporation into the institutional life of the Church, rather than being a personal and free journey into a profoundly new way of living.

[OraProMe]

edit

Edited March 24, 2010 by OraProMe

[Saint Therese]

Is it just me or does Hassan seem to be doing a lot of drinking lately?