Lumberjack...

[ironmonk]

Who or where would you say that your theology comes from? i.e. Luther, Calvin, Knox, Smith, etc...

Who do you think had it right?


God Bless,
ironmonk

[mulls]

*creeps down chimney*



i get mine off of the back of a Frosted Flakes box.





*creeps out window*

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 12 2004, 12:18 PM'] i get mine off of the back of a Frosted Flakes box. [/quote]
Dude! They must have the same thing on the back of Apple Jacks!

[mulls]

i dont eat those satanic apple "wafers."


and the backs of those boxes are always evolving and changing....new ingredients, recipies, games...while they claim to always have the same great taste.


Tony the Tiger and his word remains constant. they're grrrrreat, now and forever.

Edited April 12, 2004 by mulls

[Mary's Knight, La]

props to Mulls on Tony the Tiger

[the lumberjack]

hahaha...I love you guys.

monk...as for theology...only Christ had it right.

even the apostles got it wrong...and they were with him.

Peter had to be rebuked PUBLICALLY by Paul so he'd stop circumcising people...

there are brethren, past and present who do a great job of getting some really sound doctrine and commentaries out, but we are human and we do err.

I'm not saying that I process this COMPLETELY by myself...making myself a god.

my pastor helps, as well as the other brothers and sisters in Christ...but overall, the Holy Spirit is what guides us...so He's responsible for it more than anything.

you guys here have helped learn more about my own faith than I had previously known...so I thank you for that.

that is why I ultimately place something, whether it be tradition or the teaching of a contemporary pastor, against the framework of scripture...and if it don't jive...I'll throw it out the same window mulls crawled out.

faith and prosperity teachings??? nope

mormonism? nope

Jehoavah's witnesses? NOPE.

most denomitations of Christianity? nope.

now, most of those denominations have sound doctrine...but they skew the word a bit to stress certain things...

I was raised Pentacostal, so I know that they tend to stress "speaking in tongues". they believe that more than anything, that is how the Holy Spirit manifests itself. I was RAISED this way... but I eventually studied for myself, and it didn't completely jive with the Bible. so now, unless the speaking in tongues correlates with what the Bible says, forget speakin to me about it.

those are just a couple examples.

[dUSt]

lumberjack,

When you say "what the Bible says", I read "what I interpret the Bible to say".

Can you convince me that when you read the Bible you are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? If my non-Catholic neighbor reads his Bible and gives me a different interpretation than yours, how do I know which one of you are correct?

[the lumberjack]

dust, as you have said, we are all in different points in our walk.

if you feel drinking is wrong, based on what you read in the Bible, then it is wrong. to you.

no where in the Bible does it say that we can not drink, no matter what any denom says. it DOES however say NOT to drink to drunkeness. this is why many CHOOSE not to drink, to not even get into that situation.

there aren't too many pieces like this in the Bible, though another is Revelation and the events that will occur around/with it. its more of a grey area than salvation and the Holy Spirit and the other things Christ taught.

if your neighbor is a TRUE Christian, what they tell you about salvation, faith, and all the other MAJOR aspects of the Christian walk should be a near mirror reflection of what I post...like I said, I'm human, I can err from what I learn, but the Lord prunes away at me, as He does with all brethren.

I can't convince you to believe what I believe. its what the Holy Spirit convicts you to believe. You can come to church, as we all SHOULD, and learn and commune with the brothers and sisters, but ultimately, its up to you to walk YOUR walk. you should have people discipling and mentoring you, to keep you accountable and to keep you from going astray in doctrine...

[dUSt]

[quote]if your neighbor is a TRUE Christian, what they tell you about salvation, faith, and all the other MAJOR aspects of the Christian walk should be a near mirror reflection of what I post...like I said, I'm human, I can err from what I learn, but the Lord prunes away at me, as He does with all brethren.[/quote]
This is why I could never bring myself to understand Protestant theology. I don't believe Christianity to be a theology which evolves in each person individually. It just wouldn't make sense--it doesn't reconcile with history. If this were the case, I'd probably be athiest, as the Church is the only institution that brings Christianity in line with not only history, but science. Without the Church, I'd have no better reason to believe in Christianity than I do Judaism or Islam.

[quote]I can't convince you to believe what I believe.  its what the Holy Spirit convicts you to believe.  You can come to church, as we all SHOULD, and learn and commune with the brothers and sisters, but ultimately, its up to you to walk YOUR walk.  you should have people discipling and mentoring you, to keep you accountable and to keep you from going astray in doctrine...[/quote]
But how does this reconcile with Sola Scriptura? If in fact you are relying on people to discipline and mentor you, how is this different from me relying on the Church? You say that you rely on people to make sure you are not lead astray regarding doctrine, but how can you be sure that those people are not lead astray?

I honestly don't understand. I don't understand how non-Catholic Christians are opposed to a hierarchal Church, yet turn around can rely on pastors, etc.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 02:16 PM'] if you feel drinking is wrong, based on what you read in the Bible, then it is wrong. to you.

no where in the Bible does it say that we can not drink, no matter what any denom says. it DOES however say NOT to drink to drunkeness. this is why many CHOOSE not to drink, to not even get into that situation. [/quote]
Many Catholics (even the Church teaches this) that drinking is [b]"ok"[/b]. As long as you're legal age, it doesn't become an idol, and you don't get drunk.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]there are brethren, past and present who do a great job of getting some really sound doctrine and commentaries out, but we are human and we do err.

I'm not saying that I process this COMPLETELY by myself...making myself a god.

my pastor helps, as well as the other brothers and sisters in Christ...but overall, the Holy Spirit is what guides us...so He's responsible for it more than anything.

you guys here have helped learn more about my own faith than I had previously known...so I thank you for that.

that is why I ultimately place something, whether it be tradition or the teaching of a contemporary pastor, against the framework of scripture...and if it don't jive...I'll throw it out the same window mulls crawled out.
[/quote]

...from my earlier post.

anything and everything taught is weighed against scripture.

our own pastors tell us to do it...and our pastors usually (about 99.97% of the time know what they're talking about. and they tell us, don't trust me just because I'm a man of God up here at this pulpit, I want you to know for yourself that what I teach is truth.

[quote]But how does this reconcile with Sola Scriptura? If in fact you are relying on people to discipline and mentor you, how is this different from me relying on the Church? You say that you rely on people to make sure you are not lead astray regarding doctrine, but how can you be sure that those people are not lead astray?

I honestly don't understand. I don't understand how non-Catholic Christians are opposed to a hierarchal Church, yet turn around can rely on pastors, etc[/quote]

we rely on pastors and counsellors and mentors because they have been saved longer than us...they are farther into their walk and have been thru more, and SHOULD know more about the Lord than a new Christian.

didn't Paul disciple and become the "spiritual father" of many people? he had to bring them up in doctrine because he knew the Lord more and had more knowledge and wisdom of him than they did.

its not heirarchical because we don't believe that one is more saved just because one is older....though this is usually the case.

a personal testimony, if you don't mind....an older woman, probly in her mid 60's, introduced me to this other older man, probly in his mid 60's as "someone who knew WAY more than her about God" yet she's more than twice my age...

[grapeape]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 01:53 PM']


didn't Paul disciple and become the "spiritual father" of many people? he had to bring them up in doctrine because he knew the Lord more and had more knowledge and wisdom of him than they did.

[/quote]
ok that kinda makes sense to me...

"its not heirarchical because we don't believe that one is more saved just because one is older....though this is usually the case.

a personal testimony, if you don't mind....an older woman, probly in her mid 60's, introduced me to this other older man, probly in his mid 60's as "someone who knew WAY more than her about God" yet she's more than twice my age..."


this I don't get...I am not able to follow the logic of how you think that one is "more saved" than another. Is it possible to be more saved? I just don't get it...as a Catholic i understand that I am "saved" on the day of my baptism, but if i do nothing to show the love, ie works, then it meant nothing...please forgive me if i am steping on any feet. I am trying to understand my brothers and sisters in Christ...

Pax

[willguy]

[quote]if your neighbor is a TRUE Christian, what they tell you about salvation, faith, and all the other MAJOR aspects of the Christian walk should be a near mirror reflection of what I post[/quote]

Ans what happens when they aren't? What happens when I read my Bible and everything in it contradicts Sola Fide? According to you, that means that I'm not a "true" Christian.

[ironmonk]

[quote]monk...as for theology...only Christ had it right.[/quote]

lumberjack,

If only Christ had it right, then how could you be right when Christ said:

[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color]

Christ said that we are not saved until the end.

[b]John 14:16[/b]
[color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red][u]the Spirit of truth[/u], 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.[/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/color]

[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/color]"
[b]19 [/b][color=red]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]"


Christ built a Church on Peter. Christ said that it would never be overcome and guided by the Spirit of Truth. To be guided by the Spirit of Truth is to get it right. Christ also went as far to say that the new Church speaks for Him. If Christ was the only one to get it right that means that the Apostles must be right to. But, you claim they weren't. Individually they are not always right, but when gathered in Council they are guided by God, as promised by God the Son.

We see the first Council of the Church in Acts 15:6-31.
Acts 15:6 "the apostles and the presbyters came together to consider this matter"

In Acts 15:22 of the leadership of the whole Church assenting to the decree of James which is binding on all Gentile Christians, he is necessarily speaking of the Church in its universal or catholic sense. The Council then sent the letter to the local churches in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia. This letter remarks that the false doctrine which the council repudiated was in fact discernibly false because "we gave no such commandments" (Acts 15:24). Hence, the Bible tells us that right doctrine is subject to the discernment of the leadership of the whole Church. The decree of the Council of Jerusalem went on, then, to establish a binding obligation upon all Christians in the local churches of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: "that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality" (Acts 15:29). Did the local churches bristle at this imposition of doctrine and practice from the ecclesiastical leadership of the whole Church? Not at all, but rather they "rejoiced over its encouragement" (Acts 15:31). It is obvious that the Bible itself sets a precedent for the government of the universal Church by means of General Councils.

General Councils from 33 AD until today can only be seen in the Catholic Church.



Furthermore, the bible proves that the Church is necessary. The bible gives authority to the Church.

What you need to do is figure out which Church that is. [list]
[*]What Church has been seen throughout history since 33 AD? Matt 16:18
[*]What Church teaches forgiveness of sins with help of priests? John 20:22-23, Matt 18:18, Jas 5:14-16
[*]What Church teaches in the Real Pressense of Christ? John 6
[*]What Church is One Faith? Eph 2:5
[*]What Church teaches the necessity of baptism? Mark 16:16; John 3:5, 1 John 5:6
[*]What Church teaches the truth of purgatory? Isiah 6:5-7; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27; 1Cor 3:15, 1 John 5:16
[*]What Church had the authority to give us the Canon of the Bible? Mt 16:18-19; 18:18; Jn 20:23
[/list]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

[quote]this I don't get...I am not able to follow the logic of how you think that one is "more saved" than another. Is it possible to be more saved? I just don't get it...as a Catholic i understand that I am "saved" on the day of my baptism, but if i do nothing to show the love, ie works, then it meant nothing...please forgive me if i am steping on any feet. I am trying to understand my brothers and sisters in Christ...[/quote]

ok grapeape...maybe I shouldn't have used those words...maybe I should have used "in the faith longer and is farther down the road than a new believer" I had a brain fluffy air extraction right then...I was REALLY tired yesterday. sorry.

-----------

and willguy, just because you, OR I, err in doctrine, does not mean that we can not be corrected. Proverbs says more than once that a wise man will love correction and instruction, does it not? that is why we go to church and have brothers and sisters in Christ to keep us accountable.

unless you're teaching some kind of David Koresh/Jim Jones/Heaven's Gate kinda carp...then yeah, you're not a TRUE Christian.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 13 2004, 10:08 AM'] unless you're teaching some kind of David Koresh/Jim Jones/Heaven's Gate kinda carp...then yeah, you're not a TRUE Christian. [/quote]
Where do we draw the line then? Who's to say that it's okay to be wrong, but not as wrong as them? At what point do are mislead beliefs turn harmful?

You seem content with not being able to understand His Word.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:53 PM']
...from my earlier post.

anything and everything taught is weighed against scripture.

our own pastors tell us to do it...and our pastors usually (about 99.97% of the time know what they're talking about. and they tell us, don't trust me just because I'm a man of God up here at this pulpit, I want you to know for yourself that what I teach is truth.



we rely on pastors and counsellors and mentors because they have been saved longer than us...they are farther into their walk and have been thru more, and SHOULD know more about the Lord than a new Christian.

didn't Paul disciple and become the "spiritual father" of many people? he had to bring them up in doctrine because he knew the Lord more and had more knowledge and wisdom of him than they did.

its not heirarchical because we don't believe that one is more saved just because one is older....though this is usually the case.

a personal testimony, if you don't mind....an older woman, probly in her mid 60's, introduced me to this other older man, probly in his mid 60's as "someone who knew WAY more than her about God" yet she's more than twice my age... [/quote]
So you are willing to believe someone becuase he is older than you, but equally capable of being wrong, but not the Church who has said the same teachings for 2000 years?


Think about this....

It makes no sense to me at all.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Where do we draw the line then?[/quote]

"WE" don't draw the line anywhere, dusty one...the "line" is drawn out in the Bible for us.

[quote]Who's to say that it's okay to be wrong, but not as wrong as them? At what point do are mislead beliefs turn harmful?[/quote]

who's to say the Catholic Church has the whole truth? the Catholic Church? like I said, we are human, and even you say that "the catholic clergy don't always agree"...you know what that says to me? the Catholic Church errs too.

how do YOU know, apart from what the church has told you, that they do not err in their doctrine? sure, you search documents, but they all come from the same source...the catholic church. and even if they come from someone outside the catholic church, they must be approved by the church...which means that it gets conformed to what the church teaches...that even if there IS some form of independent thought, it is quickly snuffed out to preserve the teachings of the church.

mislead beliefs turn harmful when you take pieces of the Word of God, and apply them as you wish. they turn harmful when you assume things you shouldn't assume. they become harmful when you start relying on superstitions and myths, rather than what the Lord has given us in His Word. they turn harmful when you start relying on your own human mind instead of the Holy Spirit of God and the church that God has provided. they become harmful when you think you're good enough to discern them all... when you start to interpret it yourself...for yourself.

tell me dust, how does any of what I've posted, benefit ONLY me? how does it make people lift me above the station of a man of God? how does anything I've posted make me look like anything other than a forgiven sinner that now seeks to follow Christ down the PATH of righteousness. it is a path...not just a moment of salvation, then boom, I'm saved forever....its a path we must walk, run, and fight to stay on.

[quote]You seem content with not being able to understand His Word[/quote]

who said I didn't know His Word? I might not know ALL His Word...but that is what my life is for.

To live and love as God would have me live for Christ.
To serve and proclaim His Gospel to the lost.
To disciple brethren and sistren with the small amount of knowledge and wisdom I have...
To learn more and more and more of His word, guided by His Spirit and the elders of the Church, bind it to my heart, and defend it to the death.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 13 2004, 03:49 PM'] So you are willing to believe someone becuase he is older than you, but equally capable of being wrong, but not the Church who has said the same teachings for 2000 years?


Think about this....

It makes no sense to me at all. [/quote]
cmom...not because they are older than me, but because they have been walking with the Lord longer than I have...so they don't HAVE to be older...as I said, this is USUALLY the case.

how do you expect me to believe something that I can not know for myself is the truth? because you tell me it is? any rational human would not be able to do that. how can I be a part of something that teaches things that are out of line with what the Bible teaches...like the following list?

[quote]1. Presbyter (or elders) were first called priests by Lucian...2nd century.
2. Prayers for the dead...A.D. 300.
3. The VENERATION of angels and dead saints and the use of images...375.
4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted...394.
5. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus...431.
6. Priests began to dress different from the laity and to wear special clothes...500.
7. Extreme Unction...526.
8. The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great...593.
9. Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels...600.
10. The first man was proclaimed "Pope" (Boniface III)...610.
11. Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized...788.
12. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized in...850.
13. Veneration of Saint Joseph...890.
14. College of cardinals begun...927.
15. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV...995.
16. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory in...11th century.
17. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII...1079.
18. The rosary, or prayer beads (copied from Hindus and Mohammadans) was introduced by Peter the Hermit...1090.
19. The Inquisition of "Heretics" was instituted by the Council of Verona...1184, and was legalized and promoted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.
20. The sale of Indulgences...1190.
21. The seven sacraments defined by Peter Lombard...12th century.
22. The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III...1215.
23. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council...1215.
24. The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III...1220.
25. The scapular invented by Simon Stock of England...1251.
26. The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence...1439.
27. Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council Trent...1546.
28. The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent...1545.
29. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
30. Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by by the Roman Church...1864.
31. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council...1870.
32. Pius XI condemned the public schools...1930.
33. Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "The Mother of God"...1931.
34. The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII...1950.
35. Mary proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI...[/quote]

I lay my faith solely in God and Christ. I look to the Bible and the elders of the church for direction...so yes, I respect tradition, as I have said before...but I only do so when it falls in line with the Bible.

It makes no sense to you because you do not see as I do. You do not think as I do. You do not comprehend as I do. and until you do, and I'm not saying you ever will, you won't.

God bless.

[Archangel]

Protestantism ... 1517