How Is It That A Person Can Oppose Abortion And Still Be Comfortable W

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='31 March 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1270020272' post='2083916']
The just war doctrine is official Church teaching. (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2309.) All Catholics must accept it.
[/quote] Looking up the catechism at that paragraph and reading a bit further, I found reference to a document called [i]Gaudium et Spes [/i](What exactly is this?)

[indent][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][size="3"]79. "....Moreover, it seems right that laws make humane provisions for the case of those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms, provided however, that they agree to serve the human community in some other way.[/size][/size][/font]"

[/indent]I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. Does this mean the Roman Catholic Church thinks that those who refuse to bear arms are right to not do so?

Edited March 31, 2010 by Presbylicious

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='31 March 2010 - 04:48 AM' timestamp='1270028910' post='2083923']
Looking up the catechism at that paragraph and reading a bit further, I found reference to a document called [i]Gaudium et Spes [/i](What exactly is this?)

[indent][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][size="3"]79. "....Moreover, it seems right that laws make humane provisions for the case of those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms, provided however, that they agree to serve the human community in some other way.[/size][/size][/font]"

[/indent]I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. Does this mean the Roman Catholic Church thinks that those who refuse to bear arms are right to not do so?
[/quote]

[i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] is an excellent Papal Encyclical from 1965 that lays down the law on some very violent tendencies humanity has. A few years later came [i]Humanae Vitae,[/i] another great encyclical which, word is on the street, a guy named Karol Wojtyla greatly influenced its formulation.

The Church teaches that individuals have the right, and sometimes even the duty, to defend themselves.

Abiding by the Just War theory would eradicate 100% of the wars initiated in the world.

~Sternhauser

Edited March 31, 2010 by Sternhauser

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='31 March 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1270028910' post='2083923']

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. Does this mean the Roman Catholic Church thinks that those who refuse to bear arms are right to not do so?
[/quote]
No, it simply means you cannot be forced to fight against the dictates of your well-informed conscience, and should not be punished for that belief. However you should do some kind of alternative service for the sake of humanity.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='31 March 2010 - 08:47 AM' timestamp='1270043262' post='2084001']
[i]Gaudium et Spes[/i] is an excellent Papal Encyclical from 1965 that lays down the law on some very violent tendencies humanity has.
[/quote]

Gaudium et Spes is not a papal encyclical. It is a pastoral constitution.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='31 March 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1270067625' post='2084241']
Gaudium et Spes is not a papal encyclical. It is a pastoral constitution.
[/quote]

Good catch.

~Sternhauser

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='31 March 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1270067625' post='2084241']
Gaudium et Spes is not a papal encyclical. It is a pastoral constitution.
[/quote] What's the difference?

[mortify]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='31 March 2010 - 02:41 AM' timestamp='1270017707' post='2083910']I'm not certain they should have fought, no. [/quote]

If they hadn't fought you and I would likely have been Muslims.

[quote]Persecution is something the Church had to deal with until Constantine came along and 'baptized the sword'.(Consider: prior to Constantine a Christian could not join the Roman Army - after Constantine, you [i]could not [/i]join the Roman army [i]unless [/i]you had received Baptism!)[/quote]

There are a number of reasons why Christians did not join the Roman Army. The army was rife with idolatry and every soldier had to swear a pledge to the Pagan Emperor, this in itself would be a deterrent to join. But then there are more obvious reasons, the Romans were persecuting Christians, so why should they join their army? Once Rome converted to Christianity and a Christian civil authority was finally established, it only made sense that Christians joined the army to defend it.

[quote]The Church should not use an immoral means in order to defend her liberty. Her Lord told her that she would be persecuted and that she is to [i]love [/i]her enemies and [i]pray for those who persecute her[/i].[/quote]

Yes, I am to love and pray for my enemy, but if my enemy seeks to strike me, do I not have a *right* to defend myself? What if instead they choose to harm someone I love? Is defense not warranted? GK Chesterton said the true soldier fights not because he hates what's in front of him, but because he loves what's behind him. To do [i]nothing[/i] would be the immoral thing to do.

[quote]Also, the better alternative for the man who is drafted in war and whose government refuses to discharge him based on conscientious objector status, is either to go to prison for his convictions, or if he is forcibly placed on the battlefield, to allow himself to be killed. [i]This [/i]would be the far more God-honouring course of action[/quote]

The reality is determining whether a war is just is generally inaccessible to most people fighting, since one really needs an in-depth understanding of the numerous factors involved. In cases where one's conscience is uncertain of the justice of a war, one is permitted to fight regularly.

Now if one knows the war is unjust, and is still forced to fight, they still retain the *right* to defend themselves. Thus even in an unjust war a soldier can return fire and kill enemies that are attacking him. It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.

[quote] You will not find any argument from me that abortion is a terrible evil. But to say that an abortion is a greater evil than a killing in war is to [i]de-value [/i]human beings that are born already, which is another criticism I have of pro-lifers whose sole concern seems to be abortion. It seems like, to such people, people outside the womb < an unborn child. A person post-born is just as worth fighting for as an unborn person.[/quote]

Circumstances have a lot to do with judging a thing morally. Killing an armed soldier who is trying to kill me can't be compared to killing innocent human life in the womb. The circumstances of both cases are entirely different and so is the morality of the action. By natural law I have the right to defend myself, thus killing the enemy soldier is a just thing, on the other hand destroying a fetus is utterly unjust, as it is innocent and has the inalienable right to life. That our society has granted a license to perform these horrific acts against this most helpless group of human beings is appalling.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='mortify' date='31 March 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1270100628' post='2084662']
If they hadn't fought you and I would likely have been Muslims.[/quote] Really? So God would have permitted His Church to be eradicated?
[quote]Now if one knows the war is unjust, and is still forced to fight, they still retain the *right* to defend themselves. Thus even in an unjust war a soldier can return fire and kill enemies that are attacking him. It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.
[/quote] I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.

This is the example Christians should be following.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Presbylicious

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']This is the example Christians should be following.
[/quote] If I recall, it's also the example that men like Maximillian Kolbe followed, and he is viewed by the Catholic Church as a Saint, is he not?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 04:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']
This is the example Christians should be following.
[/quote]
On this we will disagree.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Presbylicious']I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.

This is the example Christians should be following.[/quote]
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 03:56 AM' timestamp='1270205787' post='2085475']
On this we will disagree.
[/quote] You disagree that the Christian should follow the example of Christ? Seems a bit disingenuous.

Christ didn't kill His enemies with lightning bolts from the sky when His life was threatened. He died for them!

Edited April 2, 2010 by Presbylicious

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1270208625' post='2085479']
You disagree that the Christian should follow the example of Christ? Seems a bit disingenuous.

Christ didn't kill His enemies with lightning bolts from the sky when His life was threatened. He died for them!
[/quote]
I disagree with your conclusion that your answer is the correct one and I agree with mortify who said this, and I apologize I am very tired.

"The reality is determining whether a war is just is generally inaccessible to most people fighting, since one really needs an in-depth understanding of the numerous factors involved. In cases where one's conscience is uncertain of the justice of a war, one is permitted to fight regularly.

Now if one knows the war is unjust, and is still forced to fight, they still retain the *right* to defend themselves. Thus even in an unjust war a soldier can return fire and kill enemies that are attacking him. It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.

"

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1270210954' post='2085484']
It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.

"
[/quote]
And again I point you to the example of Christ, who honoured God precisely [i]by [/i]allowing His rights to be violated [i]for the good of those who murdered Him[/i].

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1270212752' post='2085487']
And again I point you to the example of Christ, who honoured God precisely [i]by [/i]allowing His rights to be violated [i]for the good of those who murdered Him[/i].
[/quote]
Like I said I disagree with your conclusion that this is the only answer. Goodnight

[mortify]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 03:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']
Really? So God would have permitted His Church to be eradicated?[/quote]

The Middle East, North Africa, Asia Minor, etc were all predominantly Christian. How many Christians remain their now? Had brave Christians not fought the Muslim horde in Tours and Vienna, what makes you think you and I would not be Muslims today? Had God not favored the Christian forces which were often outnumbered you and I in all probability would be Muslims, but thank God we're not.

[quote]I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.[/quote]

Christ's death served a purpose, it was our means of redemption. This is why when our Lord predicted His death and St Peter prayed it wouldn't happen, our Lord scolded him, because he was interferring with the will of God and our atonement. It's precisely the same reason why our Lord told St Peter to put the sword down when the Jewish gaurd came to arrest Him. Now, your death in a battlefield would not serve this purpose, all it would serve is to increase the chances of your nation's defeat. Where as Christ's "defeat" was really a victory for us all, your defeat (i.e. death) would only increase the likelihood of your enemy prevailing over you, and this in turn would have dire consequences for the nation you fight for. As was mentioned before, being conquered by Muslims essentially meant a great decline of the true Faith, costing the souls of millions upon millions. So no, you simply allowing yourself to be killed would not be a "God honouring" thing to do.

This is the honorable thing to do:


[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Husarz1.jpg[/img]

[Semper Catholic]

Because little babies don't blow up innocent women and children. Oh and God has been raging war for hundreds of years, last I checked he killed 99.9% of all living things on the planet back in the day.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1270220862' post='2085539']
Like I said I disagree with your conclusion that this is the only answer. Goodnight
[/quote] I'd still like to flesh this out further, but in the interests of providing both myself and everyone else the opportunity to restfully worship during the holiest week in Christian calendar, I shan't be replying further to this thread till at least Monday or Tuesday.

He was wounded for our transgressions, bretheren. Your sins are forgiven and we are given the promise that God will not leave Christ in the tomb. Rejoice!

[poetryofimage]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']
Really? So God would have permitted His Church to be eradicated?
I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.

This is the example Christians should be following.
[/quote]

So did God sin when He ordered the Jews to make war on the pagans? If war is never justified, then God must have been wrong. Only if there are circumstances in which war is just, can one accept God's command.

[poetryofimage]

It is not the Crusades, and the Iraqis are not landing on our shores shouting "convert or die." The modern threat posed by a few Muslims has been exaggerated into justification for the conquest and control over the world. This war was pronounced unjust by Pope JP II. The use of drones and missiles designed to inflict high levels of civilian casualties are also unjust methods, even if the cause were justified.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='poetryofimage' date='05 April 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1270526449' post='2087460']
So did God sin when He ordered the Jews to make war on the pagans? If war is never justified, then God must have been wrong. Only if there are circumstances in which war is just, can one accept God's command.
[/quote] I would say, rather, that unless we have a [i]specific command [/i]from God to go to war in His Word, we ought not to. The LORD in times past has had prophets in order to tell His people what His will is - now that the canon of Scripture is closed, we have no more direct revelations from God and consequently no more explicit divine sanction for war.

[quote name='poetryofimage']It is not the Crusades, and the Iraqis are not landing on our shores shouting "convert or die." The modern threat posed by a few Muslims has been exaggerated into justification for the conquest and control over the world. This war was pronounced unjust by Pope JP II. The use of drones and missiles designed to inflict high levels of civilian casualties are also unjust methods, even if the cause were justified.[/quote] And whether the cause is 'justified' even under just war theory is dubious at best.

I wasn't aware John Paul II condemned the war in Iraq. It sounds like he had his head screwed on straight. God rest his soul.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Presbylicious