Why Shouldn't The Pope Go To Jail For His Cover-Up Of Abuse While

[dominicansoul]

i must say, that the misleading reports from the biased media, has erupted a storm of anti-Catholic mass hysteria...never have I seen such hatred...and people so eager to accept such outlandish accusations...how easy it is for the world to turn on the Church...

...the timing is not coincidental...

The Holy Church has just reflected and remembered the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself was accused of all sorts of wrongdoing...and yet was innocent...

...Today is Easter...and we see that through the tribulation and death...comes Resurrection and Life...

The Holy Church is merely resembling Her Groom...

The CCC states that we will enter a time, where the Holy Church will suffer greatly...as will the Pope...and the Body of Christ on earth will be persecuted...the whole world will turn against Her, but in the End the TRUTH will triumph, and all the world will see the Glory of God reflected in the Church...

...until then, stay tight...stay faithful...keep praying!

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='04 April 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1270438524' post='2086802']The Holy Church has just reflected and remembered the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself was accused of all sorts of wrongdoing...and yet was innocent...

...Today is Easter...and we see that through the tribulation and death...comes Resurrection and Life...

The Holy Church is merely resembling Her Groom...
[/quote]

Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole. I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!

Edited April 5, 2010 by Presbylicious

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - [b]that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole.[/b] I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!
[/quote]
Peter, the first pope, from whom we trace in unbroken succession our Pontiffs right down to today, denied Christ three times. Did The Church deny Christ, or just a single, fallen member?

Edited April 5, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N
[/quote]

Straw man fallacy. You want to set up people who say the pope is innocent as somehow being in favor of the abuse of children because some Catholics abused children. Unless you think the pope is supposed to know everything that goes on in every church and every diocese, your argument makes no sense.

If you want to claim that the pope knew the details of specific cases and aided in covering them up, you'll have to prove it. So far, no one, including the New York Times, has done it.

[quote]The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole.[/quote]

I'm glad you're admitting part of the problem with your argument. If I take the actions of a part of a group as representative of the whole, then every religious group is evil, depraved, full of deceit and depravity and maliciousness. Additionally, every politician is a lying, unfaithful adulterer only concerned with money and power. Every doctor is a jerk standing at the bedside of some peon he'd rather snuff out, and everyone who declares himself a savior, including Christ, is a liar.

You see, generalizations make no sense. They are illogical. Christians must be concerned with the truth. The truth is that the vast majority of priests and bishops are good, honest people. The truth is that the rates of abuse by priests, terrible as they are, are nonetheless substantially lower than any other rated group.

If you take the actions of some as representative of the whole, then you can paint the Church anyway you like. Using your same approach, I could just as easily say that every Catholic is a saint who would die for the faith without a second thought. Fortunately, I am realistic enough not to say this. Are you realistic?

[quote]I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].[/quote]

I agree that those who've covered up sexual abuse have acted wrongly.

[quote]Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.[/quote]

Glad you see that.

[quote]But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught![/quote]

You don't think that those who don't abuse children are innocent? Remember, we already clarified that you can't apply the actions of some to the whole group. So there's something wrong with claiming that those Catholics who are, in fact, innocent happen to be innocent? The Church is washed in the Blood of the Lamb. The Church is therefore pure by the grace of God in herself, but still being purified in her members. The Church is the Body of Christ. Do you say that the Body of Christ is not innocent? Christ is the head of the Church and has washed the Church, but her members are still dirty. The Body of Christ is clean, but the feet with which the Church continues on her journey pick up the dirt of sinners who cling to her in faith, hope, and love. "Whoever has bathed has no need except to have his feet washed, for he is clean all over; [b]so you are clean, but not all[/b]" (John 13:10). Our Lord washes the Church and declares her clean, but nonetheless points to Judas who is not clean. The Body of Christ that does not still walk the earth is the body of the saints, who are washed clean once and for all. Since the Church has been cleaned, there is no need to wash anything but the feet, those members of Christ's body who still journey on the road to heaven while living in a world of sin. Nonetheless, Christ declares the Church clean, but not all. Sin will continue on the part of her members.

God bless,

Micah

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole. I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!
[/quote]

You seem to be confusing the Church with Her leadership. The Church is perfect, Her leadership is not. That is something the media confuses. The media also confuses papal infallibility, assuming that Catholics believe the Pope is perfect/never wrong.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 April 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1270484909' post='2086980']
You seem to be confusing the Church with Her leadership. The Church is perfect, Her leadership is not. That is something the media confuses. The media also confuses papal infallibility, assuming that Catholics believe the Pope is perfect/never wrong.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
i just learned the word for that - impeccability. media confuses infallibility with impeccability.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Props to Lil Red for linking to Jimmy Akin's smoking gun proof of Pope Benedict XVI's innocence in this matter:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104178

Booya.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole. I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!
[/quote]
*sigh* I'm surprised that thousands of people commenting on these news reports on the internet can't get the simple fact that the WHOLE Catholic Church is NOT guilty of the crimes of a FEW...

Let's say your mom is a teacher. Let's say your mother abuses students, and then the principal, with the advice of the times, decides to put her into counseling, and when she finishes, decides to send her to another school, where the abuse continues. When all is said and done, and the mistake is discovered...do you think YOU and your whole family should be blamed for your mother's behavior? Why would the authorities drag you and your siblings to jail? Why would the whole world accuse your family of being perverted and corrupt? How would you like that? How would you like it if thousands of people were saying you all should be shot and done for? (This is less than some of the horrible things being said about the Pope and the Holy Church on the internet...)

Like I said...this whole thing is being fed by inadequate reports on the side of the media...who have a vendetta against Goodness...and with it they are causing a mass hysteria of hatred and anti-Catholic bigotry, which in fact is OVERSHADOWING the victims of this abuse...

[Servus_Mariae]

Good post domicansoul.

I am appalled at the media in a special way because they are as guilty of exploiting the victims as any one else. They are using their pain and suffering as leverage to launch an assault on the Church and the Pope they hate so much.

That it is hatred and not justice which fuels the media is apparent because they are prepared to accuse, judge, and convict the Holy Father of being maliciously involved in crimes of cover up based on an [i]interpretation[/i] of events not a [i]report[/i] of the events. The NY Times article is not about what happened, but about how the writer (*cough* aclu member...anti-catholic *cough*) perceives what the Pope/Bishops were trying to do (as he sees it...which is cya). The Boston Globe oped piece is from a lib. Catholic who is more interested in "reform" of the Ecclesiastical structure than he is about justice.

What happened? <---- This is what they need to asking/reporting

What were they thinking? <--- Speculation. Not proof. This is where allegiances/prejudices rear their head.

[Lumiere]

Archbishop Anthony Mancini says there's no ignoring the crisis the Roman Catholic Church is facing.

Halifax Archbishop Anthony Mancini says it's time to acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church is falling apart, but urges parishioners not to lose faith.

Mancini delivered the message at a mass Wednesday night at St. Mary's Cathedral Basilica in Halifax.

With more than 100 priests sitting behind him, Mancini told the packed cathedral that there's no ignoring the crisis the church is facing.

"We have been hit by a violent wind of protest and criticism, and not without cause," he said.

Pope Benedict XVI has come under fire lately over allegations he covered up sex abuse within the church. One allegation claims that in the early 1980s, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as the Pope was known then, knew of a decision to transfer a German priest suspected of sexual abuse back to his pastoral duties. He also allegedly halted the church trial of a U.S. priest accused of molesting around 200 deaf boys between 1950 and 1975.

The Vatican has denounced the accusations.

In Nova Scotia, a legal storm facing former Antigonish Bishop Raymond Lahey has the diocese teetering financially as it struggles to pay millions in compensation to victims of abuse.

Lahey, who brokered a $15-million settlement for people who claimed they were sexually abused by priests, has been charged with possession of child pornography and importation of child pornography. A trial is set for April 2011.

Mancini said the fallout from the scandals is likely to get worse. He warned the congregation that the consequences of the sins of the past are still unclear.

He asked churchgoers to pray for him and his priests as they try to rebuild trust.

"Do we want to deal with all the effects of this storm? Are we willing to hold on for the ride? Or do we want to abandon ship?" he asked.

Usher Wayne Berthier has high hopes with Mancini in charge.

"I really think that with Mancini's leadership we're going to see a whole new tone in the province," said Berthier.

http://www.cbc.ca/ca...lic-church.html

[CatherineM]

I just had this vision in my head of the end of the Grinch movie. The people of Whosville had everything removed from them, but they were still happy, singing together in a circle. If the church is completely striped and we have to go to having services in strip malls, it won't destroy the church. Can you imagine how irritated all those trying to pull us apart will be then?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Lumiere' date='05 April 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1270507452' post='2087275']
Archbishop Anthony Mancini says there's no ignoring the crisis the Roman Catholic Church is facing.
...
[/quote]
I missed your argument, here. What was it, again?

[Socrates]

Why Shouldn't The Pope Go To Jail For His Cover-Up Of Abuse?

Um, because he hasn't been found guilty?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lumiere' date='05 April 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1270507452' post='2087275']
Archbishop Anthony Mancini says there's no ignoring the crisis the Roman Catholic Church is facing.

Halifax Archbishop Anthony Mancini says it's time to acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church is falling apart, but urges parishioners not to lose faith.

Mancini delivered the message at a mass Wednesday night at St. Mary's Cathedral Basilica in Halifax.

With more than 100 priests sitting behind him, Mancini told the packed cathedral that there's no ignoring the crisis the church is facing.

"We have been hit by a violent wind of protest and criticism, and not without cause," he said.

Pope Benedict XVI has come under fire lately over allegations he covered up sex abuse within the church. One allegation claims that in the early 1980s, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as the Pope was known then, knew of a decision to transfer a German priest suspected of sexual abuse back to his pastoral duties. He also allegedly halted the church trial of a U.S. priest accused of molesting around 200 deaf boys between 1950 and 1975.

The Vatican has denounced the accusations.

In Nova Scotia, a legal storm facing former Antigonish Bishop Raymond Lahey has the diocese teetering financially as it struggles to pay millions in compensation to victims of abuse.

Lahey, who brokered a $15-million settlement for people who claimed they were sexually abused by priests, has been charged with possession of child pornography and importation of child pornography. A trial is set for April 2011.

Mancini said the fallout from the scandals is likely to get worse. He warned the congregation that the consequences of the sins of the past are still unclear.

He asked churchgoers to pray for him and his priests as they try to rebuild trust.

"Do we want to deal with all the effects of this storm? Are we willing to hold on for the ride? Or do we want to abandon ship?" he asked.

Usher Wayne Berthier has high hopes with Mancini in charge.

"I really think that with Mancini's leadership we're going to see a whole new tone in the province," said Berthier.

http://www.cbc.ca/ca...lic-church.html
[/quote]
And your point is?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Socrates' date='05 April 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1270521921' post='2087397']
Why Shouldn't The Pope Go To Jail For His Cover-Up Of Abuse?

Um, because he hasn't been found guilty?
[/quote]
Um because he hasn't done anything wrong?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Lumiere' date='05 April 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1270507452' post='2087275']
Archbishop Anthony Mancini says there's no ignoring the crisis the Roman Catholic Church is facing.

[/quote]

I would respectfully ask the Archbishop, "Who's ignoring it????"

This too, is a fallacy. The Pope has addressed this crisis more times than any Pope in the history of the Church...

seriously, some people won't be satisfied until he steps down or they have his head on a stick...

Edited April 7, 2010 by dominicansoul

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='07 April 2010 - 06:20 AM' timestamp='1270646405' post='2088325']
I would respectfully ask the Archbishop, "Who's ignoring it????"

This too, is a fallacy. The Pope has addressed this crisis more times than any Pope in the history of the Church...

seriously, some people won't be satisfied until he steps down or they have his head on a stick...
[/quote]
+JMJ+
but then, it'll just be the next pope...

[God Conquers]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='07 April 2010 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1270646405' post='2088325']
I would respectfully ask the Archbishop, "Who's ignoring it????"

This too, is a fallacy. The Pope has addressed this crisis more times than any Pope in the history of the Church...

seriously, some people won't be satisfied until he steps down or they have his head on a stick...
[/quote]

That is not the Archbishop's intention. He is speaking about the particular situation in Halifax and Nova Scotia, which is particular to that region and is very grave.

I know the Archbishop. He is excellent and orthodox. His homily is being used out of context here.

[CatherineM]

I seriously don't know what will satisfy everyone. I asked my husband yesterday if the Pope walked into the middle of St. Peter's square and starting whipping himself if that would do it. He said the flogging of Jesus didn't satisfy the crowd, so flogging the Pope probably wouldn't either.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='07 April 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1270679600' post='2088730']
I seriously don't know what will satisfy everyone. I asked my husband yesterday if the Pope walked into the middle of St. Peter's square and starting whipping himself if that would do it. He said the flogging of Jesus didn't satisfy the crowd, so flogging the Pope probably wouldn't either.
[/quote]
I agree with your husband. Those who are opposing the pope are either honestly ignorant (in which case, they probably wouldn't get the gesture) or rabidly anti-Catholic (in which case, they would only mock the gesture and whet their proverbial blood thirst).