Religious Life & Temperaments

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='06 April 2010 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1270554129' post='2087604']
Well Sister Smoke Ring I suspect it might have been one of the following three brands.


[img]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4290/soijnf.jpg[/img]

[img]http://pingmag.jp/images/article/tabaccoB13.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Laughing hard here...after my being in and out of the hospital since Wednesday of Holy week, I needed a good laugh! Hope and peace sounds like they are laced with something Carmels LOL if i remember had coupons on the back for free gifts.... so given my vow of poverty it must have been the Carmels!

Thanks for the Laugh!

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' date='06 April 2010 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1270552904' post='2087600']
You suggest that they could be used to help one know themself better, and I can see a limited use in this, provided the person doesn't then start to define themself by those terms. "Oh, I don't do that, I am a melancholic personality type!"
[/quote]

I don't have time to write too much or read each person's posts in-depth (have to go hear our baby's heartbeat soon!) but this is a subject that piqued my interest because of my experience with it.

I definitely agree with the quoted statement. In my previous religious community, it got to the point where certain Sisters would ONLY define themselves by their personality types, and push their "knowledge" of personality types on the other Sisters, so it got to be a serious point of contention. The books--the one from Sophia Institute Press that I think was already mentioned, and a booklet written by a priest--were then removed from the library, and the Sisters were reprimanded and asked not to discuss that subject with the other Sisters -- that if they wanted to use it as a tool to grow in virtue, fine, but not to discuss it outside that context with other people.

I'm a melancholic/choleric (although people tell me I must have a lot of sanguine, each time I take the test I always come up melancholic/choleric!) and I've found it very helpful in understanding certain roots to many of my faults, and why I think the way I do about some things, and my relation to other people of different temperaments, etc.

I don't think it should be used to base an entire spirituality upon, or even to be taken too seriously. I think it's good for a person to help understand themselves, but I think we need to realize that each person is different, even amongst the melancholics, or phlegmatics, etc. Someone's personality type isn't going to tell them everything about themselves. Sure, it gives you certain specific insights, but that's about it. It's a helpful tool, but it certainly shouldn't be taken as the only description of one's personality or the only way in which someone defines themselves, especially in a spiritual context -- and I've been in a position to see how spiritually dangerous it can be for someone when it IS.

[zunshynn]

I don't have a lot of time to respond, but nunsense, I think you're getting the wrong idea that people are trying to push you to like temperaments, and I don't think anyone is. Personally I don't care if you care about temperaments or if anyone else does... but I do find it somewhat offensive that you continue to imply that someone is less Catholic if they find value in it, when it is something that has played a role in the Church for centuries. No one said it should be everything, or that religious communities should use it to decided if someone has a vocation.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='06 April 2010 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1270558450' post='2087611']
Laughing hard here...after my being in and out of the hospital since Wednesday of Holy week, I needed a good laugh! Hope and peace sounds like they are laced with something [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/shock.gif[/img] Carmels LOL if i remember had coupons on the back for free gifts.... so given my vow of poverty it must have been the Carmels! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif[/img]

Thanks for the Laugh! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smokey.gif[/img]
[/quote]


LOL at "Sister Smoke Ring." [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif[/img]

In our imaginary order, smoking isn't allowed (we have to give up SOMETHING), but we need a resident saint. So, when people ask about the halo over your head, we don't want to brag or seem more holy than others, so we will just say, "Oh, Sister Mary Smoke Ring has been hiding behind the statue of Mary in the grotto smoking stogies again."

I like the name "Sister Smoke Ring" almost as much as I like "Sister Rosary Bede" (which is my favorite name so far.)

Edited April 6, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[zunshynn]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='06 April 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1270565759' post='2087650']
I don't have a lot of time to respond, but nunsense, I think you're getting the wrong idea that people are trying to push you to like temperaments, and I don't think anyone is. Personally I don't care if you care about temperaments or if anyone else does... but I do find it somewhat offensive that you continue to imply that someone is less Catholic if they find value in it, when it is something that has played a role in the Church for centuries. No one said it should be everything, or that religious communities should use it to decided if someone has a vocation.
[/quote]

I was in a hurry when I wrote that, and so it was somewhat abrupt, so I just wanted to add a couple things in addition to mentioning that if it sounded harsh, I didn't mean it too.

It's just that even if someone doesn't have an interest in something, it doesn't make it less legitimate. Personally, I haven't spent time studying temperaments because it's "fun". I have because it's helped me gain self-knowledge in my spiritual life, recognizing vices that I'm prone to fall into, and because it is respected in the Catholic Church for centuries.

So when someone compares it to horoscopes and astrology, when those things are not only frivolous but also unethical, and temperaments are not, and have been valued by saints and moral theologians in the Church for centuries (Dietrich von Hildebrand comes to mind, and I seem to think Aquinas as well, although I don't remember a large number of them), I find that a little offensive.

That doesn't mean all or even a majority of saints needed to know anything about it to become holy. But most saints probably knew very little or nothing of Canon Law, or the decrees of ecumenical councils, etc. either... does that make it unimportant?

I realize that you have a background in psychology, and I do respect that... But it surprises me that someone with that kind of background would freely make comparisons like that between things that really have no connection.

But as I said, it doesn't matter to me if you have an interest in it or not... That's totally up to you. But just because you don't like it doesn't lessen the place it has had in the Church, or make it a silly stereotyping game.

[Lilllabettt]

What I find most interesting is asking people what temperament they think I am ... its sort of a window into how I'm "coming across" to the world ...

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='06 April 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1270571760' post='2087699']
So when someone compares it to horoscopes and astrology, when those things are not only frivolous but also unethical, and temperaments are not, and have been valued by saints and moral theologians in the Church for centuries (Dietrich von Hildebrand comes to mind, and I seem to think Aquinas as well, although I don't remember a large number of them), I find that a little offensive.
...
But as I said, it doesn't matter to me if you have an interest in it or not... That's totally up to you. But just because you don't like it doesn't lessen the place it has had in the Church, or make it a silly stereotyping game.
[/quote]

????? Where was it in the thread where someone compared it to horoscopes and astrology? I just re-read this thread about 3 times and can't find the reference?

As far as whether the temperaments have a place ... I personally think that there are times where it can be of value, but shouldn't be the "deciding factor."

Having said this -- I think we could all agree to disagree without getting offended?

[zunshynn]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='06 April 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1270572906' post='2087705']
????? Where was it in the thread where someone compared it to horoscopes and astrology? I just re-read this thread about 3 times and can't find the reference?

As far as whether the temperaments have a place ... I personally think that there are times where it can be of value, but shouldn't be the "deciding factor."

Having said this -- I think we could all agree to disagree without getting offended?
[/quote]

This is what I was thinking of:

[quote name='nunsense' date='05 April 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1270517794' post='2087362']
I would be very wary of labelling someone according to these standards as much as I would be with any other system such as ennegrams or Myer-Briggs etc, although many swear by them. The minute ones gets labelled, it is very hard to get that label off. 'Oh, that's just because you are a choleric." (or J type personality, or Scorpio, or any other label).
[/quote]

Obviously it would be possible to get stuck into a temperament label and use it as excuses for behavior and things like that, which would not be good. But enneagrams and astrology are inherently a new age thing, which the Church has expressed disapproval of... Temperaments are not.

[organwerke]

Well, for example, among the Qualifications required to become a Missionary of Charity I read that candidates must be of a cheerful disposition....has it anything to do with it?

Anyway...I know that nunsense is very passionate when speaks about something that is important for her... but I think she doesn't intend to be offensive, she is probably only "sensitive" towards something that maybe in her experience had negative effects upon some people.

Actually, in my opinion I would say that talking about Temperaments could be useful in an auto-analysis, it could be dangerous if used to "label" others.

Finally...I know this is a complete off-topic, but, yes, time ago I sometimes smoke especially when I was nervous...this had a good relaxing effect upon me (anyway I always smoke only few cigarettes) but I was really ashamed when a my friend nun asked me if I smoke! I felt as if I did a very bad thing...well, I've never smoked again after that fact!!

[Cherie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='06 April 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1270572612' post='2087702']
What I find most interesting is asking people what temperament they think I am ... its sort of a window into how I'm "coming across" to the world ...
[/quote]

If "totally awesome" were one of the four temperaments, that would be you!

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='organwerke' date='06 April 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1270579552' post='2087777']
Well, for example, among the Qualifications required to become a Missionary of Charity I read that candidates must be of a cheerful disposition....has it anything to do with it?
[/quote]

That's something I've wondered... it does seem that certain temperaments seem to exude joy and "cheerfulness" more so than others, but I don't think that necessarily means that the other temperaments can't be joyful or cheerful. I know that I've struggled a lot with trying to "show" outwardly my inner joy-- it would be so disheartening for me to hear from others that they thought I was sour or always ill disposed, when in reality, I was quite joyful. I just never expressed that joy with lots of smiles and hugs.

Having a friend who is very much outwardly joyful (and inwardly as well!) has helped me learn how to 'express' my joy a little bit better. While I am still more of a introverted person, I have made it a goal to consciously smile at those whom I walk past or to stop and chat with acquaintances. Those aren't things that come naturally to me, nor are they what I would naturally think to be natural outflows of a joyful person, but I've found that they really do have an effect on other people.

It's a balance that must be found, I think. But it's been something I've considered when I think about the religious community that I am attracted to... they are very joyful, and known by many for it. It's part of what attracts me to them. But, I'm not necessarily an outwardly joyful person. Still, I think that it's an area in which I have room to grow (to an extent, of course).

(Edited for typos)

Edited April 6, 2010 by TeresaBenedicta

[tinytherese]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='06 April 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1270572906' post='2087705']

As far as whether the temperaments have a place ... I personally think that there are times where it can be of value, but shouldn't be the "deciding factor."

Having said this -- I think we could all agree to disagree without getting offended?
[/quote]

Here here! Personally, I think that things like these can be helpful, at least to a certain level, but in the end they can often be subjective. It is possible to learn from something, but to necessarily label oneself by that name. Ironically though, I still find, at the moment at least, that for years now I've consistently been an ISFJ with a strong I and strong J, but the two traits in the middle can change at times. I seriously do think that this is a wonderful description of my temperament. I took the test earlier and got a different result- INTJ (yet still a strong I and J.) I find that ananlyzing the temperaments of people just might be the most subjective thing in the world though. Certainly it can change over time, but some years at least the difference doesn't seem to be as strong.

I found it amusing to see certain celebrities that one has traits in common with. Sometimes it can be quite entertaining. And for anyone curious about how Our Lady would be termed as...http://typelogic.com/infp.html

St. Peter http://typelogic.com/estj.html St. Mark has the same personality type as Steve Erwin. http://typelogic.com/esfp.html

Our Lord apparentally is too much of a wild card for MB.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='06 April 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1270583520' post='2087817']
Here here! Personally, I think that things like these can be helpful, at least to a certain level, but in the end they can often be subjective. It is possible to learn from something, but to necessarily label oneself by that name. Ironically though, I still find, at the moment at least, that for years now I've consistently been an ISFJ with a strong I and strong J, but the two traits in the middle can change at times. I seriously do think that this is a wonderful description of my temperament. I took the test earlier and got a different result- INTJ (yet still a strong I and J.) I find that ananlyzing the temperaments of people just might be the most subjective thing in the world though. Certainly it can change over time, but some years at least the difference doesn't seem to be as strong.

I found it amusing to see certain celebrities that one has traits in common with. Sometimes it can be quite entertaining. And for anyone curious about how Our Lady would be termed as...http://typelogic.com/infp.html

St. Peter http://typelogic.com/estj.html St. Mark has the same personality type as Steve Erwin. http://typelogic.com/esfp.html

Our Lord apparentally is too much of a wild card for MB.
[/quote]

Those are really neat links, TT! I am an INFP. I found it quite amusing to see so many of my favorite people (fictional -- well, except for Wesley Crusher Hah! -- and non-fictional) are supposedly the same!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='06 April 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1270570089' post='2087688']
LOL at "Sister Smoke Ring." [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif[/img]

In our imaginary order, smoking isn't allowed (we have to give up SOMETHING), but we need a resident saint. So, when people ask about the halo over your head, we don't want to brag or seem more holy than others, so we will just say, "Oh, Sister Mary Smoke Ring has been hiding behind the statue of Mary in the grotto smoking stogies again."

I like the name "Sister Smoke Ring" almost as much as I like "Sister Rosary Bede" (which is my favorite name so far.)
[/quote]


Laughing... you guys are so baaaad!!!!

[organwerke]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='06 April 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1270582944' post='2087812']
That's something I've wondered... it does seem that certain temperaments seem to exude joy and "cheerfulness" more so than others, but I don't think that necessarily means that the other temperaments can't be joyful or cheerful. I know that I've struggled a lot with trying to "show" outwardly my inner joy-- it would be so disheartening for me to hear from others that they thought I was sour or always ill disposed, when in reality, I was quite joyful. I just never expressed that joy with lots of smiles and hugs.

Having a friend who is very much outwardly joyful (and inwardly as well!) has helped me learn how to 'express' my joy a little bit better. While I am still more of a introverted person, I have made it a goal to consciously smile at those whom I walk past or to stop and chat with acquaintances. Those aren't things that come naturally to me, nor are they what I would naturally think to be natural outflows of a joyful person, but I've found that they really do have an effect on other people.

It's a balance that must be found, I think. But it's been something I've considered when I think about the religious community that I am attracted to... they are very joyful, and known by many for it. It's part of what attracts me to them. But, I'm not necessarily an outwardly joyful person. Still, I think that it's an area in which I have room to grow (to an extent, of course).

(Edited for typos)
[/quote]


Thank you for your beautiful answer!!!
I think that we have the same temperament....!!!
And especially this:
[quote] Those aren't things that come naturally to me, nor are they what I would naturally think to be natural outflows of a joyful person, but [b]I've found that they really do have an effect on other people.[/b] [/quote]
is really true!

[vee]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='06 April 2010 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1270558450' post='2087611']
Thanks for the Laugh!
[/quote]

you`re welcome


[quote]IgnatiusofLoyola, on 06 April 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

Oh, Sister Mary Smoke Ring has been hiding behind the statue of Mary in the grotto smoking stogies again."[/quote]

This reminds me of the movie The Trouble with Angels which I recommend if you havent seen it. Its on youtube heres part one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XkKtPmZ348

Edited April 6, 2010 by vee8

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' date='06 April 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1270590741' post='2087928']

This reminds me of the movie The Trouble with Angels which I recommend if you havent seen it. Its on youtube heres part one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XkKtPmZ348
[/quote]

What a scathingly [i]brilliant[/i] idea!

[vee]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='07 April 2010 - 07:55 AM' timestamp='1270590918' post='2087931']
What a scathingly [i]brilliant[/i] idea!
[/quote]

I laughed out loud when I read that!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='07 April 2010 - 02:55 AM' timestamp='1270565759' post='2087650']
I don't have a lot of time to respond, but nunsense, I think you're getting the wrong idea that people are trying to push you to like temperaments, and I don't think anyone is. Personally I don't care if you care about temperaments or if anyone else does... but I do find it somewhat offensive that you continue to imply that someone is less Catholic if they find value in it, when it is something that has played a role in the Church for centuries. No one said it should be everything, or that religious communities should use it to decided if someone has a vocation.
[/quote]

zunshynn

This particular topic seems to have hit a nerve with you, or perhaps you simply don't like my posts, I don't know. But either way, I did find your post offensive to me personally because it implied that I had no right to my opinion if it was different from everyone else's and it attributed to me ideas and attitudes that I don't hold. Please quote to me a statement where I say that anyone who uses them are 'less than Catholic'. And as for the astrology comparison, I find all labeling odious, whether it is as new age as astrology or as 'scientific' as psychological assessments. I have seen too many people use a 'label' as an excuse for their behavior or actions.

I realize that I am in the minority here, and I stated that many times. I realize that the Church uses these things for assessment, and I stated that. I realize that it is only my opinion and that no one else has to agree and I stated that. I don't know how I could have been more fair in what I said.

Nowhere in my posts do I state that you should care about what I think so your comment is very harsh indeed. The OP said this
[quote] Take this topic however you please-- I'm just curious about everyone's thinking on the subject. Here are a couple of interesting sites I came across when I was looking stuff up:
[/quote]

I thought that meant that my opinion was just as valid as yours, despite the fact that no one may agree with me! I also tried to include little smiley faces to show that it was only my opinion.

What I am trying to understand from your post is exactly what you are saying to me. Are you saying that I have no right to my opinion, or that I should not post it here? Really? Are you saying that I can't compare these things with other labeling systems such as astrology? Really? I could go into a great intellectual debate about these kinds of comparisons but I thought that this was not the Debate Table but the Vocation Station, where we discussed things about vocations. I tried to relate my opinions back to vocations, only to be told that it wasn't about how these were used for that purpose, but how they were used by individuals to learn about themselves and avoid sin. So then I tried to talk about it from that point of view and said that if some people found this useful, that is good for them (I think I said that I concede the point). But from what you write, I hear that I am not even allowed to disagree with this point either?

Honestly, if I have to 'toe the party line' here and agree with what everyone else thinks, then I don't know how I can continue to post. If we are talking personality types, I don't need a test to tell myself that I am a compulsively self-disclosing person who lays everything out on the line, heart and soul, and is as honest as I can be. I am forthright, opinionated and passionate. But I am also open and flexible and willing to listen to well reasoned out arguments pro and con. And I have been known to change my mind and do a complete about face. Sometimes I play the devil's advocate for a topic, and sometimes I just 'say it like it is'. If I disagree with someone, then at least they know where they stand with me because there is no hypocrisy, no deceit and no hidden agendas. If I meant that that people who use psychological assessments weren't Catholic, then I would have written that, but since I didn't write that, I didn't mean that!

I am sorry if my personality type offends you, but I certainly don't think that I deserve to be shut down the way you did in your post zunshynn, and although you tried to correct it later, the fact is that it strikes me as being a bit more personal than deserved, since all of us here are just stating our own opinions, and none of us are experts.

Some of us may have more or different experiences in this area, which may have affected how we perceive this topic (or any other). Don't forget I am 57 years old and have lived more than five different careers during that time in five different countries so I might not always see things the same way that others do. And yes, I do get passionate, but so do many others here and I thought up til now that we had all done well to speak our minds with charity and acceptance of each other's differences.

For the record, no, I do not like personality testing. I can tell a lot more about a someone's personality in the way they treat another person, especially when they disagree with them. It just seems to me that your attack was very personal and not directed at the topic at hand but at me. I am happy for anyone to disagree with me but I certainly don't appreciate a personal attack, especially in an environment where I should be able to expect better. It is very disappointing.

Edited April 6, 2010 by nunsense

[Lilllabettt]

Oh, the drama.