Defending Celibacy

[Hilde]

Not that this isn't an old discussion, but the last days there have been a strong focus on the sex scandals in the church.
I've read things in the paper that I hope someone will speak up against. Things like that things would be better if priests would be allowed to marry, and that the system might attract deviants or lead people to abuse because of the lack of a partner because it's "against nature".(I'm referring to an article by Norwegian sexologists that you probably won't understand)

I love how there's people taking these vows today, it's a piece de resistance in today's society and it's a great motivator to live more virtues. They are my heroes!

And aren't most abuses done by married men?

So it's late and I'm rambling, so you guys talk now.
Go!

Edited April 9, 2010 by Hilde

[HisChildForever]

In regards to the Catholic Church, the majority of the sex scandals involve grown men and post-pubescent boys (around 15). If the issue was with clerical celibacy, the grown men would be going after grown women.

Besides, it is insulting to suggest that we have no self-control, i.e. if a man does not have sex after x years he will start molesting and raping children (more specifically same-sex children).

[aalpha1989]

My seminarian friend always puts it thus:

"Let me get this straight. You want men with serious sexual perversions to be taking these perversions out on [i]women[/i]?"

[Ed Normile]

Oh, I thought this was about defending ones celibacy. I have to do this all the time the way women pursue me, there are lots of women that chase after fat 49 year old married men, well, maybe not that many, okay none at all. lol

ed

[tinytherese]

First of all, we need to keep in mind that ironically (not to point fingers at our other Christian brothers and sisters,) but according to research Protestant Churches as a whole together have even more sex scandals with children and teenagers and these are married clergymen. Second, I recommend reading The Priest is Not His Own and And You Are Christ's: The Charism of Virginity and the Celebate Life to help showing other people to understand the beauty of celibacy, so that it doesn't look like perverse supression.

[poetryofimage]

Not all clergy are celibate; Deacons have their own families. Since the Anglicans being accepted into the Catholic communion will be allowed to be married (as an exception), it is not an absolute. Vows of celibacy are not an infallible doctrine, but established so that priests could attend to their flock with full attention. I don't see the same scandals among the Anglican communion, so perhaps it would be better for some priests to marry - "better to marry than to burn with passion" as the Apostle put it. So long as there are a minimum of priests, I'm sure celibacy will continue as the norm. Disregard the media, as they are not Bishops; Revocation would only become a real possibility if the dire shortage of priests continues for some years.

Edited April 9, 2010 by poetryofimage

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='poetryofimage' date='09 April 2010 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1270791722' post='2089825']
Not all clergy are celibate; Deacons have their own families. Since the Anglicans being accepted into the Catholic communion will be allowed to be married (as an exception), it is not an absolute. Vows of celibacy are not an infallible doctrine, but established so that priests could attend to their flock with full attention. I don't see the same scandals among the Anglican communion, so perhaps it would be better for some priests to marry - "better to marry than to burn with passion" as the Apostle put it. So long as there are a minimum of priests, I'm sure celibacy will continue as the norm. Disregard the media, as they are not Bishops; Revocation would only become a real possibility if the dire shortage of priests continues for some years.
[/quote]

I don't think the Church will ever take the gift of celibacy away from her beautiful priests. If she deems it necessary, I think it would be fitting that we would see a huge increase in the numbers of men entering religious orders.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='poetryofimage' date='09 April 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1270791722' post='2089825']
Not all clergy are celibate; Deacons have their own families. Since the Anglicans being accepted into the Catholic communion will be allowed to be married (as an exception), it is not an absolute. Vows of celibacy are not an infallible doctrine, but established so that priests could attend to their flock with full attention. I don't see the same scandals among the Anglican communion, so perhaps it would be better for some priests to marry - "better to marry than to burn with passion" as the Apostle put it. So long as there are a minimum of priests, I'm sure celibacy will continue as the norm. Disregard the media, as they are not Bishops; Revocation would only become a real possibility if the dire shortage of priests continues for some years.
[/quote]
I don't believe allowing a married clergy would "solve" the vocations crisis. It's never that simple. In fact, looking at the numbers, I believe our vocations are doing much better than any of the Protestant ones.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='poetryofimage' date='09 April 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1270791722' post='2089825']
I don't see the same scandals among the Anglican communion
[/quote]
Maybe it's because the media doesn't focus on it like they do with the Catholic Church.
[size="2"][font="Arial"]I'm sure I can dig up some cases with ease just by typing "Anglican sex abuse" in a search engine.[/font][/size]

Edited April 9, 2010 by Maximilianus

[Son of Immaculata]

Being married doesn't stop doctors, teachers, fathers, uncles, firemen, policemen, librarians, family friends, or any other profession from molesting, and yet this is a magical solution for a priest?

[Anomaly]

One would think a person undergoing years of theological and spiritual training and guidance who than makes a public commitment to God and witnesses to dedicate oneself to be a living example of Jesus on this earth would have a better than average rate of success.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='09 April 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1270841805' post='2090083']
One would think a person undergoing years of theological and spiritual training and guidance who than makes a public commitment to God and witnesses to dedicate oneself to be a living example of Jesus on this earth would have a better than average rate of success.
[/quote]

From what I understand, the majority of the abusers are in their fifties and up. When they were studying in the seminary, psychological assessment was lacking.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='09 April 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1270841805' post='2090083']
One would think a person undergoing years of theological and spiritual training and guidance who than makes a public commitment to God and witnesses to dedicate oneself to be a living example of Jesus on this earth would have a better than average rate of success.
[/quote]
As sad as it is to say . . . priests often reflect the overall state of the society from which they are taken. Let us pray that all Christians in the Western world become more "counter-cultural" by promoting virtue among the faithful and within society at large.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 April 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1270842214' post='2090091']
From what I understand, the majority of the abusers are in their fifties and up. When they were studying in the seminary, psychological assessment was lacking.
[/quote]
Oh! Think about what you just wrote.

Did you just say that psychological assesment is more effective and correcting abherent sexual behavior than the spiritual development of going through a seminary and becoming a priest. 'Grace fails' but Carl Jung prevails?

And did Apotheon just say that becoming a priest does not, cannot help a person become better behaved than average?

Edited April 10, 2010 by Anomaly

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='10 April 2010 - 07:37 AM' timestamp='1270899442' post='2090366']
Oh! Think about what you just wrote.

Did you just say that psychological assesment is more effective and correcting abherent sexual behavior than the spiritual development of going through a seminary and becoming a priest. 'Grace fails' but Carl Jung prevails?
[/quote]

Um, no. How on earth do you interpret "psychological assessment" as TREATMENT? Psychological assessment ASSESSES. You know, determining who is and is not part of a particular risk group.

What does Carl Jung have to do with this? Are we interpreting or analyzing dreams? No.

[Winchester]

The new rule is we don't have to justify our cultural norms. All cultures are equal and beautiful.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Winchester

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='10 April 2010 - 05:37 AM' timestamp='1270899442' post='2090366']
And did Apotheon just say that becoming a priest does not, cannot help a person become better behaved than average?
[/quote]
Yes. Ordination is not a magic bullet that makes one holy. Read the prayers of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 April 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1270842214' post='2090091']
From what I understand, the majority of the abusers are in their fifties and up. When they were studying in the seminary, psychological assessment was lacking.
[/quote]

Not only are the "psychological assessments" required of seminarians completely ridiculous, they do nothing to catch potential abusers. Thank God some monasteries haven't fallen into the trap that is psychological assessments.

Unless you think knowledge of British history is relevant to a vocation.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 April 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1270932326' post='2090574']
Yes. Ordination is not a magic bullet that makes one holy. Read the prayers of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.
[/quote]

Excellent point. However, I think many people believe (hope?) that the PROCESS of becoming a priest should help in making him more holy. Also, that the people making the decisions about candidates for ordination would (should?) be wiser than they perhaps have been in the past about denying ordination to a candidate who might have issues with celibacy.

However, I think that it's asking a lot of the people in charge of making decisions about ordination candidates, to be able to weed out all future abusers, even if the decisions are made with a lot of prayer. If it's true, as was posted earlier, that most abusers are in their 50's, then it could be very hard to tell how a candidate for ordination, who is most often in his 20's, is going to act when he is in his 50's and has been celibate (you hope) for a LONG time.

Edited April 10, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='10 April 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1270933153' post='2090582']
Excellent point. However, I think many people believe (hope?) that the PROCESS of becoming a priest should help in making him more holy. Also, that the people making the decisions about candidates for ordination would (should?) be wiser than they perhaps have been in the past about denying ordination to a candidate who might have issues with celibacy.

However, I think that it's asking a lot of the people in charge of making decisions about ordination candidates, to be able to week out all future abusers, even if the decisions are made with a lot of prayer. If it's true, as was posted earlier, that most abusers are in their 50's, then it could be very hard to tell how a candidate for ordination, who is most often in his 20's, is going to act when he is in his 50's and has been celibate (you hope) for a LONG time.
[/quote]
The "process" leading to ordination is all well and good, for there needs to be screening by the Church when it comes to the validity of a man's vocation, but my point remains, i.e., that the sacraments are not magical rites that can somehow overcome man's free will. That grace is objectively present in the holy mysteries is an article of faith, but that truth of faith cannot by itself overcome the necessary subjective disposition that makes sacramental grace personally effective for each man.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Apotheoun