Atheists Saying Prayer Is Stupid

[kamiller42]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1318891323' post='2322909']
If the study exists it would need thorough scrutiny. The study needs to be repeatable with consistent results. It needs to be performed by many people from various world views. The method needs to be scrutinised and the results scrutinised. If the study meets all this and it shows clear benefits for people that are prayed for then how can an Atheist deny it?
[/quote]
Clearly, you have given yourself enough escape avenues to duck out of any study concluding prayer does help. It appears as one preparing for defense rather than open to a truth which may run contrary to existing conclusions.

Here is a multi-national study performed by academia analyzing the benefits of prayer. It was submitted to the Souther Medical Journal for scrutiny. "[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1300506/Prayers-really-heal-sick-finds-international-study.html#ixzz1bA7oD1DJ"]Prayers really can heal the sick, finds international study[/url]"

None of this is to say prayer is guaranteed recovery. God is not a slot machine; insert two prayers, pull handle, and score a jackpot. The positive effects of prayer are good for the pray-er, anyone being prayed for, and is measurable in certain cases.

[Aloysius]

the point is that there is no way to scientifically study when the father will give the child a cookie and when the father will not give the child the cookie. it is up to the father. your praise of and suggestions for the skeptical child show a very strange and distorted understanding of the actions of a free will... it's always worth it to ask for a cookie, even though asking for a cookie doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one. is the father really some statistical force to measure? you don't think the child should merely interact with the personal will of the father? expecting that the father follow some scientific rule and measurement is a sterile and ugly way to engage in a relationship. would you approach a dating relationship that way? a friendship?

a large sample size will produce statistical predictable data about the actions of free will. but with prayer, the sample size for the will is one, it's the will of God, so it's not statistically predictable any more than what decision a father will make when asked to give his child a cookie can be.

oh, and stevil, as to your questions about what prayer is, I think most people here are taking for granted what prayer is and simply arguing whether it has any merit. your list of questions can pretty much be answered by "yes". prayer is all of those things, it is supplication, it is meditation, it is conversation. I think the fact that your opposition is the ones who actually do pray is why you're not getting so much discussion about what prayer is, we all know what it is because we do it, we take it for granted. we know that sometimes we ask something from God, sometimes we simply converse with God, sometimes we do it for ourselves, sometimes we do it to offer God praise and worship out of love or duty, there are many different things that go on in prayer. I have been here examining the phenomenon of prayers of supplication/petition.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Aloysius

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
the point is that there is no way to scientifically study when the father will give the child a cookie and when the father will not give the child the cookie.
[/quote]
Statistically we can measure whether there is a trend based on historical events. We can then use this to predict future events. Unless something changes, we would expect future events to be similar.
I would not expect measurements to be the same for the case where cookies are asked for in comparison to when cookies are not asked for.
However there is only one way to find out if my expectations meet reality and that is to take measurement and perform an analysis.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
it is up to the father.
[/quote]
Yes it is, but I would expect this person to have certain personality traits, be it compassion, generosity, or stubbornness, contempt ...
We could measure the effects of children's pleas for cookies with regards to the way this person reacts, be it giving out or not giving out cookies.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
your praise of and suggestions for the skeptical child show a very strange and distorted understanding of the actions of a free will... it's always worth it to ask for a cookie,
[/quote]
Hmmm, I might just be strange. :-)

I would think that if studies show that the father is less likely to give out cookies if asked for then it would be best not to ask for them if in fact you want to increase your chances of receiving cookies.
You will find that most successful businesses perform market surveys and analysis to improve their chances of making a profit. Knowledge is a powerful thing, holding onto preconceptions is less likely to be successful (IMHO).
[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
even though asking for a cookie doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one.
[/quote]
No, but a well executed study could give an indication as to whether it is bast to ask or not with this particular father

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
you don't think the child should merely interact with the personal will of the father?
[/quote]
If the child wants to improve his chances, he would be best to take note the historical success or failure of asking his father for cookies.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
expecting that the father follow some scientific rule
[/quote]
There is no scientific rule that the father is following, he could perform/react differently in the future, however people tend to be creatures of habbit. Knowledge of historical events and trends can certainly give the child an advantage.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
measurement is a sterile and ugly way to engage in a relationship. would you approach a dating relationship that way? a friendship?
[/quote]
Absolutely, I always am conscious of what is happening and adapt my approach to gain a favorable outcome. If my date hasn't been in a happy mood after watching horror movies with me but gets quite affectionate after watching romantic comedies then I insist on going to see romantic comedies with her.


[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
a large sample size will produce statistical predictable data about the actions of free will. but with prayer, the sample size for the will is one, it's the will of God, so it's not statistically predictable
[/quote]
We are looking for trends here, not isolated incidents.
If we presume that Christians pray for their life partner to recover from life threatening car accident related injuries but that Atheists do not perform such prayer then we would assume that if god grants some of the Christians prays for recovery that there would be a statistical difference with regards to the recovery rates based on this demographic. If there is no difference then god has not granted a benefit of recovery based on prayer, not even to a small percentage of those prayers. There must be millions of such incidents, we could measure this.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318976068' post='2323370']
oh, and stevil, as to your questions about what prayer is, I think most people here are taking for granted what prayer is.
[/quote]
From my participation on this forum I am not so sure that Catholics are aligned. Some have petitioned people to pray that "Pacman" the boxer would win his fight. Some have told me that praying for the outcome of a sporting event would not be an appropriate prayer, that it would be a sort of cheating. Does god cheat?
Some people say that you can pray for favorable events, some people have said that prayer is not a Santa list. So I feel there are some conflicting ideas.

Edited October 19, 2011 by stevil

[BigJon16]

I was once sent a message via Youtube that said that prayer was just someone talking to himself and that I should seek help, because I was crazy. He called me all sorts of things. I was like 12. It was pretty offensive. Caused a lot of "whats wrong with me"s. It had a fairly bad effect on my "preteen" years. I ended up reporting him, and justice was served.

Way to go, modern atheism. Ruining my childhood and all.











**sarcasm is heavily present in this post. But it's a true story....bro.

[Papist]

[quote]From my participation on this forum I am not so sure that Catholics are aligned. Some have petitioned people to pray that "Pacman" the boxer would win his fight. Some have told me that praying for the outcome of a sporting event would not be an appropriate prayer, that it would be a sort of cheating. Does god cheat?
Some people say that you can pray for favorable events, some people have said that prayer is not a Santa list. So I feel there are some conflicting ideas. [/quote]
Correct. Many people have a curious understanding[or perhaps no understanding] of prayer. There is a lady at work that has a license plate the states, "When all else fails...pray". I don't think she realizes the message is pray to God as your last resort. To me, that is backwards. We should always be praying, in good times and bad times and all times in between.

There are good prayers and bad prayers.

Good: Lord, please help my brother-in-law overcome his addiction and give strength to my sister to endure this tough times...but according to Your will. Amen.

Bad: Lord, please have my brother-in-law run over by a bus, so my sister can be free of this scumbag. Amen.

[Aloysius]

prayer is not a santa list, but it is okay to ask for things from God. sometimes the point is to talk to God about what you want, sometimes God might help you and sometimes it might just help yourself to converse with God about those wants. expecting that you'll get your petitions like a magic wish is bad.

as to your analysis of the father's will, I can see we're simply not going to agree. I continue to contend that God's answers to prayers will not necessarily trend one way or the other due to the fact that each individual prayer has individual unique circumstances. any study on prayer would not be repeatable, because each individual unique case is treated absolutely differently. this whole conversation has largely ignored the studies that have been cited, one study was cited where prayers were "standardized" by the researchers and no effect was discernible, while a few other studies were cited where prayed-for groups did significantly better than control groups. again, I would contend a hundred different studies would produce a hundred different results, because of the unique will of God for the particular situation of each individual patient in a study who is being prayed for, but the studies we've cited have actually largely indicated positive trends in healing for prayer.


here's a study that shows it trending towards "effective"

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/19/2273?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=prayer+coronary&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

another in the "prayer is effective" category:
http://www.bmj.com/content/323/7327/1450.full.pdf

here's the study that showed prayer as ineffective, a study that appears to have required the "prayer group" to use standard written prayers to test their effectiveness, clearly treating prayer as if it is a magic formula, so it makes sense for the results to be that attempts to control God's power in the form of magic formulas would be ineffective:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567?dopt=Abstract

anyway, from most actual studies done on the matter, it appears there is a statistical advantage to prayer; despite that evidence, I still contend that this is not necessarily to be expected, and that I don't think those studies should be repeatable. but there it is for you, if you want, you demand stats, and most of the stats say prayer is effective

[prose]

Generally, I point out that I believe God doesn't work "on demand". There are plenty of miracles that are unexplained that I can indicate that have been thoroughly researched. God is not statistical. Talk to someone who can personally testify as to the power of prayer in their own life, or some miracle they have personally experienced.

Most atheists I know are reluctant to hear anything that isn't studied. Unfortunately, God isn't an on-demand kind of guy, and sometimes personal experiences are all we have to go on. Which is interesting because many "atheists" and "agnostics" spout on about the power of positivity from their personal experiences. And there are many other things that singular experiences are valid enough for them.

[stevil]

According to the first link that you provided

[quote]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]The purpose of the present[sup] [/sup]study was to attempt to replicate Byrd's findings by testing[sup] [/sup]the hypothesis that patients who are unknowingly and remotely[sup] [/sup]prayed for by blinded intercessors will experience fewer complications[sup] [/sup]and have a shorter hospital stay than patients not receiving[sup] [/sup]such [b][color="#CC0000"][color=#CC0000]prayer[/color][/color][/b].[/size][/font]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][/quote][/size][/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][quote][/size][/font]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Lengths of CCU and[sup] [/sup]hospital stays were not different.[/size][/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Mean lengths of stay in the CCU and in the hospital (after initiation[sup] [/sup]of [b][color="#CC0000"][color=#CC0000]prayer[/color][/color][/b]) were not different ([url="http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/19/2273?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=prayer+coronary&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT#TABLEIOI90043T4"]Table 4[/url]), and median hospital[sup] [/sup]stay was 4.0 days for both groups[/size][/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]There[sup] [/sup]was no significant difference between groups using Byrd's hospital[sup] [/sup]course score[/size][/font]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][/quote][/size][/font]

So although they found an 11% difference in CCU scores, the prayed for event of hospital stay length did not differ.

The following suggests that the sample size was not large enough
[quote]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Without these 2 patients, length of hospital stay[sup] [/sup]for the [b][color="#CC0000"][color=#CC0000]prayer[/color][/color][/b] group dropped from 6.48±0.54 days to 5.84±0.31[sup] [/sup]days[/size][/font]. [font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Neither was significantly different from the length of[sup] [/sup]stay in the usual care group (5.97±0.29 days).[/size][/font]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][/quote][/size][/font]

[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Although an 11% difference in CCU scores seems significant we do not know what the margin of error is (they have provided a margin of error based on the inaccuracy of their measurements but they have not provided a margin of error based on expected variance of average hospital length of similar sized samples, hence we do not know if this difference falls within the margin of error.[/size][/font] It is interesting that they state that the length of hospital stay for the prayer group including the two long stay patients is not significantly different from the usual care group.6.48-5.97 = 0.51 which is 8.57% difference. So they are stating that an 11% CCU score difference is significant but an 8.57% hospital length is not significant. BTW, the margin of error they provide in measuring the length of stay in hospital seems excessive as they have an error of + or - half a day which gives a whole day's uncertainty for a stay on average of 6 days.

Obviously to add more weight to the validity of this study different groups need to perform the exact same test on significantly sized samples to see if their results are consistent with these findings here.

[Aloysius]

indeed, we would need better studies if we thought we could study this issue. however, my belief is that such studies could go either way, because the circumstances of each individual with medical needs is different. two people could have the exact same circumstances of life from all human standards but one could be meant to die at a certain time and one could be meant to live longer; it would have to do with the unknowable state of their soul and the intricate and complicated plan God has involving each and every one of their loved ones.

as I keep saying, I would fully expect multiple studies to find different results. I think what you're failing to recognize in my position is the existence of factors that cannot be accounted for in any study. prayer is a cooperation with the will of God, such that some prayer might cooperate with God's will to heal through prayer, but God's will is sovereign over all prayers and God's will will take into account factors such as the state of the pray-er's soul, the state of the prayed-for's soul, the lessons the pray-er needs to learn, the lessons the prayed-for needs to learn, and the lessons that every single one of the prayed-for's loved ones, friends, neighbors, and enemies, needs to learn.

those are some of the [b]MAIN[/b] factors that will determine whether prayer will be effective, and NONE of them can be scientifically isolated.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Aloysius

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1319128393' post='2324220']
indeed, we would need better studies if we thought we could study this issue. however, my belief is that such studies could go either way, because the circumstances of each individual with medical needs is different. two people could have the exact same circumstances of life from all human standards but one could be meant to die at a certain time and one could be meant to live longer; it would have to do with the unknowable state of their soul and the intricate and complicated plan God has involving each and every one of their loved ones.

as I keep saying, I would fully expect multiple studies to find different results. I think what you're failing to recognize in my position is the existence of factors that cannot be accounted for in any study. prayer is a cooperation with the will of God, such that some prayer might cooperate with God's will to heal through prayer, but God's will is sovereign over all prayers and God's will will take into account factors such as the state of the pray-er's soul, the state of the prayed-for's soul, the lessons the pray-er needs to learn, the lessons the prayed-for needs to learn, and the lessons that every single one of the prayed-for's loved ones, friends, neighbors, and enemies, needs to learn.

those are some of the [b]MAIN[/b] factors that will determine whether prayer will be effective, and NONE of them can be scientifically isolated.
[/quote]
I understand it is complex and that we can't know what the outcome of an isolated case would be, my argument is that if there is intelligence thought reacting on prayer then there would be some difference in comparison to the randomness of events without prayer, however we are not noticing any difference, so god's actions seem to me to be unchanged by prayer.

But anyway, we are getting nowhere here, you believe that your god answers prayer in a physical way even though you acknowledge that this cannot be observed or measured. So I guess that means you are free to believe any event was the result of a prayer, even if there is no evidence, but that is faith.
At least it means that I am not disadvantaged in any way, good things will happen to me and my loved ones at the same rate as you and your loved ones and I don't have to bother with prayer.

Edited October 20, 2011 by stevil

[Aloysius]

especially since there are so many out there praying for the whole world, and praying for you and your loved ones.

when you say we don't notice any difference between prayer and random events, you cite nothing prove this, you assert it without proof. you may have criticisms for the few studies that exist, but those studies show a difference between prayer and random events. I disagree that we would necessarily see a trend in any given sample size, but to assert without proof that there is no trend is simply false.

there are specific instances of miracles obtained by prayer which have been studied by the Vatican with the inclusion of panels of doctors that state there is no medical explanation, a certain number of such events that have happened at Lourdes as well as quite a lot that have established miracles for the cause of a saint, so there is that. my denial that a sample size can prove prayer does not mean that there are never specific instances that can be established beyond some level of reasonable doubt to have been the result of prayer.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1319144931' post='2324354']
when you say we don't notice any difference between prayer and random events, you cite nothing prove this, you assert it without proof.
[/quote]
Initially I thought proof would be a bit premature as I was trying to establish what people believed with regards to prayer.
I didn't think that there have been conclusive studies done proving the advantage of pray as I would have thought that it would then be common knowledge. But once everyone on this thread started agreeing that there would be no statistical difference then it made citing studies somewhat redundant. What would be the point searching for a study to prove what everyone already agrees to?


[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1319144931' post='2324354']
you may have criticisms for the few studies that exist, but those studies show a difference between prayer and random events.
[/quote]
I'm baffled by your comments here. On the one hand you tell me there would be no statistical difference, on the other hand you tell me that these referenced studies show that there is a difference.
My criticisms explain that I don't agree that there is a conclusive difference and that I don't agree that the difference between the two groups in the study has been proven to be attributed to the prayer factor. This study is inconclusive.

[Aloysius]

I wouldn't expect a consistent repeatable statistical difference. I'd expect there to sometimes show a benefit, sometimes show no benefit, sometimes maybe even show people prayed for being less likely to get better; every time depending upon the particular circumstances of those being prayed for and those doing the praying.

HOWEVER, I am entirely capable of discussing things assuming your premises. I am criticizing you for not establishing your premise. You claim that there is no statistical benefit to prayer: I say, show me the proof. While you may have some criticisms for the studies that show prayer as effective, you have not shown any counter-studies. I cited one counter-study and criticized it for obviously testing prayer as if prayer were a magic formula rather than a supplication (pre-written prayers only allowed, to isolate whether a specific wording could "work"). other than that, the studies showed trends towards prayer being effective, even if you dispute the sample size.

I don't think it's fair to say prayed-for people respond exactly as one would expect random chance to respond. However, I do not believe larger sample sizes will necessarily demonstrate any trend; as we are dealing with a personal will and hundreds and thousands and millions of different circumstances in each case we would potentially examine as part of a study, any trend would be different every time. You could have a ten year study done one decade and find that prayer was dramatically trending towards healing, and a ten year study in a different decade that found prayer supposedly "behaving similar to random chance", and a ten year study in another decade showing people that were prayed for actually being less likely to get better. all because it's personal supplication to a personal will. prayer is not a treatment, it is a request to God, which should always end "Thy will be done"