Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 April 2010 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1271603661' post='2095618']
Reyb entitled this thread, "Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius," and I have shown - by giving the quotation from the [i]Panarion[/i] to which he referred in his first post - that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades while releasing those who failed to serve - in Marcion's words - the "God of the Jews."
[/quote]

[b]Marcionites - Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 [/b]at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire
.............
But even in hell Christ overcame the Demiurge by preaching to the spirits in Limbo, and by HisResurrection He founded the true Kingdom of the Good God. [b]Epiphanius (Haer., xlii, 4) says that Marcionites believed that in Limbo Christ brought salvation to Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles, but left in damnation all Old Testamentsaints.[/b] This may have been held by some Marcionites in the fourth century, but it was not the teaching of Marcion himself, who had no Antinomian tendencies

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm)

Thus, you can see where I got this title.

Now, in your previous post you said '[i]that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades[/i]'

Thus in my previous post I am asking,

[quote]
..... Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.
[/quote]

Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
[b]Marcionites - Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 [/b]at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire
.............
But even in hell Christ overcame the Demiurge by preaching to the spirits in Limbo, and by HisResurrection He founded the true Kingdom of the Good God. [b]Epiphanius (Haer., xlii, 4) says that Marcionites believed that in Limbo Christ brought salvation to Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles, but left in damnation all Old Testamentsaints.[/b] This may have been held by some Marcionites in the fourth century, but it was not the teaching of Marcion himself, who had no Antinomian tendencies

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm)[/quote]
Reyb do you know the difference between a primary and a secondary source? I quoted a primary source, i.e., the actual text of St. Epiphanios, while you continue to quote the old Catholic Encyclopedia, which is not quoting St. Epiphanios, but is simply referencing him for its own purposes, and is doing so rather poorly - in my opinion.

If you look at the Greek text of St. Epiphanios' [i]Panarion[/i] he uses the word Hades when talking about Christ's descent to the dead after His crucifixion, and never uses the word Gehenna (i.e., hell in English).

Get your facts straight if you want to debate this issue with me.

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Thus, you can see where I got this title. [/quote]
My advice to you is that you should be more careful when quoting secondary sources. As I tell my students . . . ALWAYS VERIFY WHAT IS SAID IN A SECONDARY SOURCE BY RECOURSE TO THE PRIMARY TEXT! ALWAYS!

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Now, in your previous post you said '[i]that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades[/i]'

Thus in my previous post I am asking,
[quote]..... Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.[/quote][/quote]
I am not going to debate you on the issue of the "limbo of Cain," because it is a construct of your own mind. There is no reference in any ancient text that I am aware of to a "limbo of Cain." If you know of any document that refers to this creation of your own thoughts, by all means quote the text, but be sure to supply the information necessary so that I can confirm the quotation by recourse to the primary source document.

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?[/quote]
Hades is a biblical term used throughout the New Testament by Christ the Lord Himself so I will never deny the teaching on Hades. Now as far as "Limbus Patrum" is concerned, it is simply a name used for Hades by the Latin Church, which is no skin off my nose. I am not a Latin Catholic and so I normally use Greek (or Slavonic) terms in theological discourse.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Formosus]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']


Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?
[/quote]

Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades, BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......

[mortify]

What a sad attempt to attack the Catholic Church. It reveals something about the author as well.

[reyb]

[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271610194' post='2095635']
Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades, BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......
[/quote]

I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?

Edited April 18, 2010 by reyb

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]
I am not a Marcionite heretic so I cannot speak for them, but "Limbus Patrum" was the name given to Hades (and in particular to the Bosom of Abraham within Hades) by the Medieval Scholastic theologians.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]

There you go again, this passage Rom 7:24-25 is referring to Paul's fleshly body that will die, because of the effects of original sin. And that it is only Christ that will save him.

Edited April 18, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271610194' post='2095635']
[b]Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades[/b], BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......
[/quote]


[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo' or not?

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 April 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1271626790' post='2095771']
There you go again, this passage Rom 7:24-25 is referring to Paul's fleshly body that will die, because of the effects of original sin. And that it is only Christ that will save him.
[/quote]

...meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?

[Formosus]

What is there not to get when I said "Yes the Macrionites were referring to Hades". They were wrong on what happened when Christ descended into Hades and they were wrong on who was in Hades, but he heretical Macrionites and the Early Church fathers are both referring to Hades as a place all the dead ,before Christ, went after they died. Christ died, and descended into Hades to save the righteous souls who lived before Christ's time. The difference between the marcrionites and the Catholics is the Macrionites were gnostics and so they thought the righteous in Hades were people like Cain etc who rejected the God of the OT .(because the God of the OT in gnostic theology is actually Satan, so by rejecting Satan and his material creations in the OT, Cain was actually worshiping the invisible gnostic God who frees us from corporeal reality) The Catholic Church and the Early Church rejected this gnostic view. The God of the OT is identical to the God of the NT, so the righteous of the OT were those who did God's will. Namely Abraham, Issac, David, etc.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Formosus

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1271632393' post='2095818']
...meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?
[/quote]

"To you" and "to I" mean little it is actually what is and what is not. Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 April 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1271635570' post='2095839']
"To you" and "to I" mean little it is actually what is and what is not. [i][b]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.[/b][/i]
[/quote]

Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[/b]

That is precisely what I am talking about. You see the above verse (Romans 7:24-25) the way you explain it - that '[i]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.'[/i] And I do not think it is different from what I previously posted..

[quote]
meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?
[/quote]

But he is not saying the way you understood it that is, if I am the one who will read it. Let us set aside this verse for a while (and we will discuss it later) because we are still discussing about 'limbo' or 'hades'.

Edited April 19, 2010 by reyb

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1271642014' post='2095880']
Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[/b]

That is precisely what I am talking about. You see the above verse (Romans 7:24-25) the way you explain it - that '[i]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.'[/i] And I do not think it is different from what I previously posted..



But he is not saying the way you understood it that is, if I am the one who will read it. Let us set aside this verse for a while (and we will discuss it later) because we are still discussing about 'limbo' or 'hades'.
[/quote]

But you brought those verses into this discussion. And the two different verses have different subject matter they cannot be married as you are vainly attempting to do.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id151.html"]Romans 7.[/url]

Notes & Commentary:

I cry out, who shall deliver me from the body of this death, from this mortal body with its sinful lusts, which if consented to would bring death to the soul? Nothing but the grace of Jesus Christ can secure me from such temptations, and by freeing me from this body, can make me perfectly happy; which cannot be hoped for in this life. But I have still this greatest of consolations, that I myself, with my mind and will, still serve God, and remain firm in obedience to his laws; but with the flesh, or in the flesh, I am subject to the law of sin, i.e. of sinful inclinations. --- We must avoid here two heretical errors; that of those late pretended reformers, who denying man's free will, hold the commandments of God impossible, even to a just man. See also the first heretical proposition of Jansenius. Next we must detest the late abominable error of those called Quietists, who blushed not to say that a man might yield and abandon himself to the most shameful disorders of the flesh, pretending that it was not they themselves, but sin and the devil that caused these abominations in their flesh. St. Augustine foresaw this frivolous excuse: (lib. i. de. nup. and Concup. chap. xxviii.) "That man (saith he) is in a grievous mistake, who, consenting to the concupiscence of the flesh, and to do what the flesh prompts him to, thinks he can still say: It is not I that do that," &c. (Witham)

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id190.html"]2 Corinthians 12.[/url]

Notes & Commentary:

Ver. 1. If I must glory. St. Paul in the whole of this discourse shews the repugnance he had of speaking in his own praise, and that if he did it, it was only through constraint, and for the advantage of the Corinthians; as also to defend himself from his calumniators. (Calmet)

Ver. 2. I know a man, &c. He speaks of himself, as it were of a third person. --- Whether in the body, I know not. If St. Paul himself knew not, how can we pretend to decide, whether his soul was for some moments separated from his body, or in what manner he saw God. (Witham) --- It appears that this took place about the period when the Holy Ghost commanded that he should be separated for the work whereunto he was called. (Acts xiii. 2.)

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='17 April 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1271535856' post='2095209']
Or maybe you just don't enjoy being corrected. [/quote]

I do, actually, when it involves learning something new and doesn't come with an attitude. I'll take care of the learning myself and maybe you'll take care of the rest.

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 April 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1271617314' post='2095680']
I am not a Marcionite heretic so I cannot speak for them, but "Limbus Patrum" was the name given to Hades (and in particular to the Bosom of Abraham within Hades) by the Medieval Scholastic theologians.
[/quote]


[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1271632552' post='2095822']
What is there not to get when I said "Yes the Macrionites were referring to Hades". They were wrong on what happened when Christ descended into Hades and they were wrong on who was in Hades, but he heretical Macrionites and the Early Church fathers are both referring to Hades as a place all the dead ,before Christ, went after they died. Christ died, and descended into Hades to save the righteous souls who lived before Christ's time. The difference between the marcrionites and the Catholics is the Macrionites were gnostics and so they thought the righteous in Hades were people like Cain etc who rejected the God of the OT .(because the God of the OT in gnostic theology is actually Satan, so by rejecting Satan and his material creations in the OT, Cain was actually worshiping the invisible gnostic God who frees us from corporeal reality) The Catholic Church and the Early Church rejected this gnostic view. The God of the OT is identical to the God of the NT, so the righteous of the OT were those who did God's will. Namely Abraham, Issac, David, etc.
[/quote]

It is only proper to say, ‘Limbo is a heretical view’ because Marcionites are heretics who believe in this idea but, something is not right on how you see them. It seems in Catholics’ view, Marcionites are not outright heretics because, if we will limit our discussion on Limbo, they are not heretics - just like what it was posted ‘Epiphanius did not condemned the idea about ‘Limbo’ or ‘Hades’ and Catholics and Marcionites are referring to that same place - but, if we will include persons took by Christ in that place, they become heretics in the eyes of Catholics.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='21 April 2010 - 05:12 AM' timestamp='1271841165' post='2097247']
It is only proper to say, ‘Limbo is a heretical view’ because Marcionites are heretics who believe in this idea but, something is not right on how you see them. It seems in Catholics’ view, Marcionites are not outright heretics because, if we will limit our discussion on Limbo, they are not heretics - just like what it was posted ‘Epiphanius did not condemned the idea about ‘Limbo’ or ‘Hades’ and Catholics and Marcionites are referring to that same place - but, if we will include persons took by Christ in that place, they become heretics in the eyes of Catholics.
[/quote]

It is not proper to say Limbus Patrum is a heretical view. It is grossly improper. Marcionites were outright heretics. Yes they believed in the existance of Limbus Patrum but perverted it, twisted it into something it was not.

Why don't we move on and you can bring up your next sourced objection to Limbus Patrum.

Edited April 21, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

Guys, I would just give up.

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 April 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1271890094' post='2097554']
It is not proper to say Limbus Patrum is a heretical view. It is grossly improper. Marcionites were outright heretics. Yes they believed in the existance of Limbus Patrum but perverted it, twisted it into something it was not.

Why don't we move on and you can bring up your next sourced objection to Limbus Patrum.
[/quote]

Okay.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 April 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1271890405' post='2097559']
Guys, I would just give up.
[/quote]

I'm surprised they're still humoring reyb after all this time.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='21 April 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1271904174' post='2097707']
I'm surprised they're still humoring reyb after all this time.
[/quote]

So am I...