"traditional" Versus "orthodox" Roman Catholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1273945792' post='2111123']
In ancient times, both the Church and her faith were called "Catholic." The Apostles' Creed states "Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam [b]Ecclesiam Catholicam[/b] . . ." and the Athanasian Creed states, "Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat [b]Catholicam fidem.[/b]"
[/quote]
A quotation from one 6th century creed (i.e., the Pseudo-Athanasian Creed) is hardly a proof that the term Catholic, which simply means "according to the whole," was commonly used as a descriptor for the faith by the Church Fathers. On the other hand, the word Orthodox was used by the Church Fathers to mean both "right glory" and "right belief," which is why it was always applied by the Holy Fathers to those who are true members of the Catholic Church, while heterodox was applied to those outside her canonical and mystical boundaries.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1273946292' post='2111126']
A quotation from one 6th century creed (i.e., the Pseudo-Athanasian Creed) is hardly a proof that the term Catholic, which simply means "according to the whole," was commonly used as a descriptor for the faith by the Church Fathers.[/quote]

Seeing as the text of the Athanasian Creed was written and used during the Patristic era, it seems quite reasonable to me that it used terminology frequent during that period.

I think one should also note that the Canon of the Mass, another text from the Patristic era, uses the term "Catholic faith": "Una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro N. et Antistite nostro N. et omnibus orthodoxis atque [b]catholicae et apostolicae fidei[/b] cultoribus."

According to Lewis and Short, the word "catholicus" means "universal, relating to all," at least in Latin (the language in which the ancient writings I have been referencing were all written).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1273947357' post='2111130']
Seeing as the text of the Athanasian Creed was written and used during the Patristic era, it seems quite reasonable to me that it used terminology frequent during that period. [/quote]
The text was unknown in the East until the latter part of the first millennium.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1273947357' post='2111130']I think one should also note that the Canon of the Mass, another text from the Patristic era, uses the term "Catholic faith": "Una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro N. et Antistite nostro N. et omnibus orthodoxis atque [b]catholicae et apostolicae fidei[/b] cultoribus."[/quote]
Interesting that the word "orthodox" appears in the text of the Roman canon.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1273947357' post='2111130']According to Lewis and Short, the word "catholicus" means "universal, relating to all," at least in Latin (the language in which the ancient writings I have been referencing were all written).[/quote]
The etymology of the word supports the Patristic understanding of the word [i]catholic[/i] as "according to the whole" (i.e., that which is complete and indivisible, i.e., [i]kata[/i] = about, [i]holos[/i] = the whole). Universal is a poor attempt to translate the Greek into English, an attempt that weakens the true meaning of the word. Moreover, I do not think that anyone would want to accept "relating to all" as a translation of καθολικός since that would involve believing anything and everything (i.e., all) that has ever been believed (pagan polytheism, Hinduism, Buddhism, et al.).

[Bennn]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='15 May 2010 - 07:35 AM' timestamp='1273901712' post='2111015']
I don't disagree with you. What I was saying is that those regular parishioners account for a tiny percentage of the Catholics in the diocese. Even if you want to focus on the decently devout/orthodox Catholics, those attending the TLM parish are still a minority. Thus, the majority of devout Catholics are [i]not[/i] attending the traditional Latin mass regularly, but are attending the NO regularly. I'm not making a judgment call, just pointing out numbers.

Is that minority growing? Sure. But it's definitely a subset of orthodox. There are plenty of Catholics out there who have been attending mass their entire lives, are loyal to the Magisterium of the Church...and have never heard of the FSSP.
[/quote]


The only reason I go to an OF Mass is because there are no TLM's near to where I live. Today I went to a TLM with my dad, but we have to drive far to have one. So I think that if there would be more TLM's, more people would visit them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1273948061' post='2111133']
The text was unknown in the East until the latter part of the first millennium.[/quote]

You say that as if usage of the phrase "Catholic faith" during the Patristic era in the West did not matter.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1273948061' post='2111133']
Interesting that the word "orthodox" appears in the text of the Roman canon.[/quote]

It is also interesting that St. Augustine used the term "Catholic faith" very frequently in his writings.


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1273948061' post='2111133']
The etymology of the word supports the Patristic understanding of the word [i]catholic[/i] as "according to the whole" (i.e., that which is complete and indivisible, i.e., [i]kata[/i] = about, [i]holos[/i] = the whole). Universal is a poor attempt to translate the Greek into English, an attempt that weakens the true meaning of the word. Moreover, I do not think that anyone would want to accept "relating to all" as a translation of καθολικός since that would involve believing anything and everything (i.e., all) that has ever been believed (pagan polytheism, Hinduism, Buddhism, et al.).
[/quote]

It is an etymological fallacy to state that the meaning of a word depends completely upon its etymology. If etymology were the only thing that mattered in determining a word's meaning, our understanding of what a pineapple is would be very different.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1273949136' post='2111139']
It is an etymological fallacy to state that the meaning of a word depends completely upon its etymology. If etymology were the only thing that mattered in determining a word's meaning, our understanding of what I pineapple is would be very different.
[/quote]
That would be true if it were not for the fact that the original meaning has been kept in the Eastern Churches from the beginning.

This is all rather moot anyway, since I just found an essay from the Journal of Theological Studies online that states that the clause in question is of late origin (i.e., after the 8th century).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1273949328' post='2111141']
This is all rather moot anyway, since I just found an essay from the Journal of Theological Studies online that states that the clause in question is of late origin (i.e., after the 8th century).
[/quote]

I wouldn't consider an essay more than 100 years old to be the best source of information for accurate liturgical scholarship. You also conveniently ignored the fact that St. Augustine frequently used the term "Catholic faith" in his writings.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1273949689' post='2111144']
I wouldn't consider an essay more than 100 years old to be the best source of information for accurate liturgical scholarship. You also conveniently ignored the fact that St. Augustine frequently used the term "Catholic faith" in his writings.
[/quote]
The essay is confirmed by Jungmann who clearly says that the text was added after the 8th century. We are dealing here, not with opinions, but with manuscript evidence.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='15 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1273949689' post='2111144']
I wouldn't consider an essay more than 100 years old to be the best source of information for accurate liturgical scholarship. You also conveniently ignored the fact that St. Augustine frequently used the term "Catholic faith" in his writings.
[/quote]
Yes, I have no doubt that St. Augustine misused the word "catholic" at times in his writings, he made a lot of mistakes in connection with Greek words that come over into the into the Latin language.

[jeffpugh]

Sry, buddy. Apo wins this round.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1273950996' post='2111150']
Yes, I have no doubt that St. Augustine misused the word "catholic" at times in his writings, he made a lot of mistakes in connection with Greek words that come over into the into the Latin language.
[/quote]

The fact that St. Augustine used the word "Catholic" differently than you would have (or even differently than some of his Greek counterparts would have) does not make his usage incorrect. Rather, it shows that the phrase "Catholic faith" is indeed a correct one, as attested by its presence in the Canon of the Mass, the Athanasian Creed, and numerous other Latin texts from the first millennium.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 May 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1273950877' post='2111149']
The essay is confirmed by Jungmann who clearly says that the text was added after the 8th century. We are dealing here, not with opinions, but with manuscript evidence.
[/quote]

While I do not know enough about the topic to know when exactly "catholicae et apostolicae fidei" was added to the Canon of the Mass, the fact that the phrase does not appear in extant manuscripts before the 8th century does not mean it is not older. There is also the possibility that liturgical scholarship could have made the issue clearer recently, as Jungmann's work is half a century old.

Also, even if the phrase "catholicae et apostolicae fidei" wasn't added to the Canon until the 8th century, that does not mean it is any less true a phrase. The fact that the phrase was eventually added actually shows that it was common in the vocabulary of Latin Catholics even before its addition.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='15 May 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1273959607' post='2111191']
Sry, buddy. Apo wins this round.
[/quote]

How so? He states that the term "Catholic faith" is inaccurate or at least not ancient, while I have shown several texts from the Patristic era in which the phrase was used.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='15 May 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1273901680' post='2111014']

But, what kind of outfits would each of these groups wear? For example, is it feasible to wrestle in a cassock and biretta?
[/quote]
I could make a cassock out of lycra spandex like wrestling costumes. The biretta would be harder. It would have to have some kind of strap to stay on.

[Socrates]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 May 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1273935105' post='2111074']
In general, I find Phatmass to be orthodox with leanings towards tradition. Like someone mentioned, traditional Catholics tend to be more external than the orthodox - like women wearing veils in Mass. I would not say that a traditional Catholic is more devout than an orthodox Catholic, but that they just focus on things an orthodox Catholic does not.

In fact, you can use "orthodox Catholic" as your baseline. What I mean is this: every person who says "I am a Catholic" should fit into that category. You can almost set it up the way political parties are set up. Just keep in mind that "moderate" here is not "between" or "either/or" but "In line with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church".

Cafeteria Catholics - Liberal
Lukewarm or Ignorant Catholics - Moderate with liberal tendencies
Orthodox Catholics - Moderate
Traditional Catholics - Moderate with conservative tendencies
Radical-Traditional Catholics - Conservative

Notice that Cafeteria Catholics and Rad-Trad Catholics are not described using the word "moderate" - because both are NOT in line with the Magisterium. Rad-Trad would include sedevacantists etc.
[/quote]
See SMM's post below.


[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='15 May 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1273940225' post='2111093']
I think Apo's words should be heeded more closely. Orthodoxy isn't a political leaning in the Church. It is the encounter with the truth of the apostolic faith. Orthodoxy in a sense--I would say--is "traditional"
[/quote]
True.

Orthodox and "traditional" Catholicism are not opposed to one another nor mutually exclusive, nor are they different gradients in a "liberal to conservative" spectrum. "Orthodox" simply means in line with Church teaching, and can include traditionalists as well as others. Most "traditional" Catholics are also orthodox (except for some on the extreme "rad trad" fringes of the movement).

[Socrates]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='15 May 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1273901712' post='2111015']
I don't disagree with you. What I was saying is that those regular parishioners account for a tiny percentage of the Catholics in the diocese. Even if you want to focus on the decently devout/orthodox Catholics, those attending the TLM parish are still a minority. Thus, the majority of devout Catholics are [i]not[/i] attending the traditional Latin mass regularly, but are attending the NO regularly. I'm not making a judgment call, just pointing out numbers.

Is that minority growing? Sure. But it's definitely a subset of orthodox. There are plenty of Catholics out there who have been attending mass their entire lives, are loyal to the Magisterium of the Church...and have never heard of the FSSP.
[/quote]
I don't disagree that "trads" are a minority in the Church (even among serious orthodox Catholics). I just disagreed with the claim that most who attend TLM do so as a "novelty" experience.
I also wanted to point out that those who attend TLM are not mostly nostalgic old folks, but are a comparatively youthful group, many of whom were born after Vatican II. (It wasn't clear whether you were making that assumption, but that's a common misconception.)

Edited May 17, 2010 by Socrates

[MithLuin]

And I will once again point out that you are misreading what I am saying. I did not say that those who attend TLM do so as visitors or as a novelty. I said that the majority of orthodox Catholics attend the Latin mass not at all...or as an occasional visitor. Meaning, most of the people attending the Latin mass are members of the parish that offers it. But since that is likely to be the only parish in the area that does so...your average devout Catholic is [i]not[/i] one of those parishioners. So, IF they do attend, they do so as a visitor. Visitors do not account for a significant number of people, but I wanted to allow for them, at least.

And yes, I know that most of the attendees were not adults pre-Vatican II, as that generation is quite elderly at the moment. Most of the people I have spoken to appreciate the reverence they observe among those who attend the Latin mass, so that is a factor in choosing the parish.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' date='17 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1274126529' post='2112052']
I also wanted to point out that those who attend TLM are not mostly nostalgic old folks, but are a comparatively youthful group, many of whom were born after Vatican II. (It wasn't clear whether you were making that assumption, but that's a common misconception.)
[/quote]
Proportionately, there are more young families at the EF Mass in my city than at any N.O. parish I've seen before.
That's not really saying much (and it has seemed to be getting better in recent years), but it's still significant.

[Bennn]

The Pope himself has said that interest in the forma extraordinaria is found especially in the youth.