Confirmation Age?

[tinytherese]

What really frustrates me is when people don't attend mass, psr, ccd, or Catholic schools, but attend the sacramental preparation classes. Once that's over you don't see them again until they want a sacrament. After confirmation, you might not see them again until they want to get married in the Church to please their parents. I remember hearing one guy say how his mom made him go to Catholic schools and get confirmed, but in his heart he said he didn't believe in any of it. Once he went off to college on his own, he basically do whatever by then. That's so sad. I'll be a DRE in the future and I know that I'll have to deal with this.

I just had the idea that kids should go through a bunch of hoops and go through very thorough confirmation preparation like Catholics have to do at really orthodox parishes so that they can get married. It probably isn't legal, but I'd love to refuse someone from receiving confirmation who only sees it as graduation from Catholicism. I think that every parish should keep close track of whether or not someone who was baptized a Catholic has gone through every year of CCD or whatever and attend Mass on the days they are supposed to, unless they have a sufficient reason for not attending or if say they were traveling on vacation and attended another parish that weekend.

[Catholic Fox]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='24 May 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1274758697' post='2117038']
What really frustrates me is when people don't attend mass, psr, ccd, or Catholic schools, but attend the sacramental preparation classes. Once that's over you don't see them again until they want a sacrament. After confirmation, you might not see them again until they want to get married in the Church to please their parents. I remember hearing one guy say how his mom made him go to Catholic schools and get confirmed, but in his heart he said he didn't believe in any of it. Once he went off to college on his own, he basically do whatever by then. That's so sad. I'll be a DRE in the future and I know that I'll have to deal with this.

[/quote]

We call those people "sprinkle Catholics".

They only attend church to be sprinkled with water, rice, and dirt.

[truthfinder]

I think it is much easier for "younger" children to understand being sealed by the Holy Spirit than the fact they are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. I know in gr. 2 when I had first Communion, we were barely taught that the Host was Jesus. It was mostly, look how you form a community with your friends, family, schoolmates, city blah blah blah and oh yeah you should go to confession blah blah blah. I can understand having children getting into the habit of receiving young so that they are more likely to receive in the state of grace for a couple years at least. However, because most parents don't go to church, no habit is being formed except one of committing mortal sin.

I agree, we really need to get away from "cookie cutter" ages. I have some ccd children who are so perceptive and willing in the faith and others who act like they're 2 in regards to the faith (well, honestly, i think some of their parents are the same way). It's like the story of St. Pius X, the child was 4 when the Pope allowed him to make his first communion. Some children could receive from an early age and others need a very long time to mature ( not that Jesus should be denied, though). Hmm, more thought is necessary, and prayer.

[JustJump]

[quote name='Catholic Fox' date='25 May 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1274764171' post='2117084']
We call those people "sprinkle Catholics".

They only attend church to be sprinkled with water, rice, and dirt.
[/quote]


Love it: Cafateria Catholics, Creaster Catholics, and Sprinkle Catholics...any other terms?

[JustJump]

I don't know. Should grace really be given if the person doesn't understand it? And doesn't accept it? It seems disrespectful sort of? Yet it is God. He shouldn't be denied to anyone. But if we're so obsessed with not letting even a piece of the Host touch the ground, or a non Catholic receive the host???[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='JustJump' date='25 May 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1274792585' post='2117180']
Love it: Cafateria Catholics, Creaster Catholics, and Sprinkle Catholics...any other terms?
[/quote]
I'm kinda partial to "brothers and sisters in Christ"

[dominicansoul]

My mom was confirmed when she was an infant, and believe me, she was the holiest person I have ever met! A true Saint! (And I'm not just saying that 'cos she was my mom...)

I think it is important to understand that people do not need "formation" in order to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation...it isn't like Holy Communion, (where the person must believe and understand that the Holy Eucharist is God...)

...when you read in the New Testament of the Holy Spirit coming upon the early Christians, there was no formation involved, the Holy Spirit just came upon them and HE did all the work...I think in today's day and age, we need to be confirming children, to better prepare them for the spiritual battles they will be getting into as they reach the age of puberty...

I teach catechism, and I usually have a classroom filled with teenagers who "have been there, done that.." and I think its sad that the Church could've better armed them for the battles they have already fought and lost...

I'm all for Confirmation for infants and children...

[JustJump]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='25 May 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1274793493' post='2117187']
My mom was confirmed when she was an infant, and believe me, she was the holiest person I have ever met! A true Saint! (And I'm not just saying that 'cos she was my mom...)

I think it is important to understand that people do not need "formation" in order to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation...it isn't like Holy Communion, (where the person must believe and understand that the Holy Eucharist is God...)

...when you read in the New Testament of the Holy Spirit coming upon the early Christians, there was no formation involved, the Holy Spirit just came upon them and HE did all the work...I think in today's day and age, we need to be confirming children, to better prepare them for the spiritual battles they will be getting into as they reach the age of puberty...

I teach catechism, and I usually have a classroom filled with teenagers who "have been there, done that.." and I think its sad that the Church could've better armed them for the battles they have already fought and lost...

I'm all for Confirmation for infants and children...
[/quote]


Hmmm I hadn't thought of it like that...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 May 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1274744504' post='2116781']
I think that Confirmation should normally be administered before the reception of first holy Communion in order to preserve the traditional order of the sacraments of Christian initiation.
[/quote]
Agreed. I'm very glad our Bishops are working on restoring the order (right now Confirmation is usually after First Holy Communion).

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1274748861' post='2116858']
The younger the better. The kids could use the infusion of grace given in the sacrament.
[/quote]
Definitely agree. I personally wouldn't mind if it were done in the same time frame as the Eastern Rites.

[Cherie]

[quote name='JustJump' date='24 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1274748501' post='2116855']
I can personally say I just went along with the flow. And so have so many others.
[/quote]

This is why I think it should be EARLIER, rather than later.

Kids NEED the graces of the sacrament of Confirmation to deal with all the horrible vices they will encounter in their high school years. High school is entirely too late for someone to be confirmed. Remember, in the Eastern Rites a child is confirmed as an infant! (Though I'm Latin Rite through and through, that is one reason that actually makes me lean towards Byzantine...!) I wish the Latin Rite would confirm infants. (Interestingly enough, if an infant is in danger of death, the child is supposed to receive the sacrament of Confirmation.)

My previous religious Superior, Mother Mary Gabriel, was principal at a school in which there were children of the Latin, Melkite, and Maronite Rites. She said she always knew which children were Melkite or Maronite, because it seemed like the graces they had received in being confirmed as an infant were almost tangible, as opposed to those children in the Latin rite who had yet to receive Confirmation.

(edit for clarity)

Edited May 25, 2010 by CherieMadame

[MissScripture]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='24 May 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1274758697' post='2117038']
What really frustrates me is when people don't attend mass, psr, ccd, or Catholic schools, but attend the sacramental preparation classes. Once that's over you don't see them again until they want a sacrament. After confirmation, you might not see them again until they want to get married in the Church to please their parents. I remember hearing one guy say how his mom made him go to Catholic schools and get confirmed, but in his heart he said he didn't believe in any of it. Once he went off to college on his own, he basically do whatever by then. That's so sad. I'll be a DRE in the future and I know that I'll have to deal with this.

I just had the idea that kids should go through a bunch of hoops and go through very thorough confirmation preparation like Catholics have to do at really orthodox parishes so that they can get married. It probably isn't legal, but I'd love to refuse someone from receiving confirmation who only sees it as graduation from Catholicism. I think that every parish should keep close track of whether or not someone who was baptized a Catholic has gone through every year of CCD or whatever and attend Mass on the days they are supposed to, unless they have a sufficient reason for not attending or if say they were traveling on vacation and attended another parish that weekend.
[/quote]
I got soooo irritated at our marriage prep weekend by the number of people doing it "because my parents/grandparents/etc. will be mad at me if I don't get married in a church, but I'd rather have it on a beach" or something like that. If you're not mature enough to say to tell your parents/grandparents/etc. that you don't believe it, are you really mature enough to be getting married?

And it was exactly the same when I was confirmed. They did it because their parents wanted them too, but the funny part is, for some of them, their parents weren't really involved at all with Church, they just wanted their kids to be.


[quote name='JustJump' date='25 May 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1274792900' post='2117182']
I don't know. Should grace really be given if the person doesn't understand it? And doesn't accept it? It seems disrespectful sort of? Yet it is God. He shouldn't be denied to anyone. But if we're so obsessed with not letting even a piece of the Host touch the ground, or a non Catholic receive the host???[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Graces don't need to be understood to be received. And really, in some regard, confirmation is something beyond understanding. It really isn't about learning the history of the Church or even what the Church believes. It's about being sealed in the Holy Spirit. The knowledge about the Church is important, but it isn't a necessity of confirmation. Not to mention, with the shoddy job that some places do with preparation for confirmation, anyway, the confirmants don't really know much more than when they started the preparation...

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='25 May 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1274793493' post='2117187']
My mom was confirmed when she was an infant, and believe me, she was the holiest person I have ever met! A true Saint! (And I'm not just saying that 'cos she was my mom...)

I think it is important to understand that people do not need "formation" in order to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation...it isn't like Holy Communion, (where the person must believe and understand that the Holy Eucharist is God...)

...when you read in the New Testament of the Holy Spirit coming upon the early Christians, there was no formation involved, the Holy Spirit just came upon them and HE did all the work...I think in today's day and age, we need to be confirming children, to better prepare them for the spiritual battles they will be getting into as they reach the age of puberty...

I teach catechism, and I usually have a classroom filled with teenagers who "have been there, done that.." and I think its sad that the Church could've better armed them for the battles they have already fought and lost...

I'm all for Confirmation for infants and children...
[/quote]
I heartily agree!
Especially now, with the battles happening at younger ages, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are especially important!

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 May 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1274744504' post='2116781']
I think that Confirmation should normally be administered before the reception of first holy Communion in order to preserve the traditional order of the sacraments of Christian initiation.
[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 May 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1274745064' post='2116798']
In the Eastern tradition babies receive the mystery of chrismation (and eucharist) right after being baptized.

As far as the Western Church is concerned, I believe that children should receive confirmation before first communion.
[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 May 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1274748861' post='2116858']
The younger the better. The kids could use the infusion of grace given in the sacrament.
[/quote]

The order of the Sacraments of Initiation needs to be considered, so I agree with you guys.
Confirmation IS NOT graduation from CCD, or "confirming" an adult faith.

Sometimes I even wonder if we had children made catechumens at birth, and then receive all three at the Easter Vigil at some time around puberty, if they so chose.

[quote name='Catholic Fox' date='25 May 2010 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1274764171' post='2117084']
We call those people "sprinkle Catholics".

They only attend church to be sprinkled with water, rice, and dirt.
[/quote]

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 May 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1274998786' post='2119325']
The order of the Sacraments of Initiation needs to be considered, so I agree with you guys.
Confirmation IS NOT graduation from CCD, or "confirming" an adult faith.

Sometimes I even wonder if we had children made catechumens at birth, and then receive all three at the Easter Vigil at some time around puberty, if they so chose.
[/quote]

Wonder what? Are you saying you think it might be a good thing or a bad thing to wait until puberty?

While I see some reasoning for waiting for confirmation and reception of the Holy Eucharist, there definitely is no foundation in Church history for waiting for baptism until the age of reason. (Aside from some trends in which people would wait until their deathbed for baptism... that wasn't about refraining until one understood the sacrament, that was due to a prevailing heretical belief that one could not be forgiven of mortal sin after baptism, and so, for fear that one might later commit a mortal sin, they waited to be baptized and that was never advocated by the Church officially).

Personally though, while I see the logic, somewhat, of desiring for people to be old enough to understand, I am personally of the opinion that it's better for all 3 sacraments of initiation to be given when children are young. We need the graces that come from them, and you don't have to completely understand it to benefit from the graces that come from them. Not only that, but we will never fully understand the sacraments, and often times, it is not until you experience a sacrament that you are able to more fully understand it. I think that a child who has grown up with the graces from the sacraments is more likely to have a deeper understanding of the sacraments and to be more deeply impacted by them then a child that didn't receive the sacraments until they were already almost teenagers, like CherieMadame pointed out in her example.

By the way, Cherie, that was an awesome story about Mother Gabriel and her students. Very beautiful!

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='27 May 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1274999851' post='2119349']
While I see some reasoning for waiting for confirmation and reception of the Holy Eucharist, there definitely is no foundation in Church history for waiting for baptism until the age of reason. (Aside from some trends in which people would wait until their deathbed for baptism... that wasn't about refraining until one understood the sacrament, that was due to a prevailing heretical belief that one could not be forgiven of mortal sin after baptism, and so, for fear that one might later commit a mortal sin, they waited to be baptized and that was never advocated by the Church officially).
[/quote]

It is one suggestion that I have thought about, and it isn't merely founded in my creativity.

Augustine was withheld baptism until after he was done with adolescence. In fact, it was the practice in the ancient Church.
In fact it was strange for three centuries to consider having baptism without a catechumenate first. In some cases it had to do with sin, but in many cases it had to do with the catechumenate. The earlier liturgical documents that we have deal more extensively with rich pre baptismal rites and the catechumenate as much as with the baptismal rite.
The "prevailing belief" of mortal sin being unforgivable really was not condemned until the Donatists took up that position
Eventually the family became the legit catechumenate. Because of that it was best to baptize the child as soon as possible, but nowadays, it is not the case, children are baptized with apathetic parents, and what good is that?
I guess, I might be the only one in here who favors a variety of options, that is why I never made any CONCLUSIVE STATEMENTS in my previous post, I merely brought a few things for consideration. IE Personally, I think a really solid, and committed Catholic family is a well suited catechumenate, and would be the best place for an infant baptism.
another option might be infant baptism, and then confirmation and eucharist together at Easter Vigil for younger children after a period of the catechumenate.
With the surrounding culture being apathetic if not hostile to the christian faith sometimes i wonder if we didn't baptize so many children from faithless parents maybe our church would be less divided, and more in one mind and one heart like the early apostolic communities.

[tinytherese]

Families just might be the most difficult part of catechesis. So few seem to realize that they are the ones that really affect the children and teenagers in CCD or whatever. We catechists can only get so far with them. They are the primary educators and the catechists are meant to only supplement the faith. Nowadays, people just think that sending them off to religious education classes and having the catechists do all of the work is enough.