The Philosophy Of Liberty

[Sternhauser]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTQqvDtPzY0[/media]

After watching it through, does anyone disagree with anything in it? If so, what, and why?

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[LivingStone]

I watched about 30 seconds and already disagree with the first 'premise'. You do NOT own yourself, you belong to the Lord. We are called to give our entire selves, not just our merits and glories, but everything to the Lord. This is especially true (and intensified if you ask me) if St. Maxmillian Kolbe's and St. Louis de Montefort's different theologies behind consecrating oneself entirely to Jesus through Mary. Just saying, you don't own your life. Jesus gave it, he can taketh, and our morality needs to be founded on that, not what the video suggests.

[KnightofChrist]

More anarchist heresy in direct opposition to Catholic teaching.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='LivingStone' date='04 June 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1275707380' post='2123949']
I watched about 30 seconds and already disagree with the first 'premise'. You do NOT own yourself, you belong to the Lord. We are called to give our entire selves, not just our merits and glories, but everything to the Lord. This is especially true (and intensified if you ask me) if St. Maxmillian Kolbe's and St. Louis de Montefort's different theologies behind consecrating oneself entirely to Jesus through Mary. Just saying, you don't own your life. Jesus gave it, he can taketh, and our morality needs to be founded on that, not what the video suggests.
[/quote]

Yes, you belong to God. That is something I myself don't like about the video. On the other hand, they're specifically speaking about human interaction. I can give them a mulligan on that point. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God. That doesn't mean we own each other, and can thus impose our own image and likeness upon others at gunpoint, or even enforce the natural law in its entirety at gunpoint. The fact that God owns you does not mean that you have the right to do any of the immoral things enumerated in the video. Don't judge the book by its cover. Watch the whole video.

Knight, did you watch any of it before calling it "heresy?" You're mighty quick to whip out that "Heresy Hammer."

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1275708500' post='2123952']
Knight, did you watch any of it before calling it "heresy?" You're mighty quick to whip out that "Heresy Hammer."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Yes, I watched the video. Same old same old. It attacks the authority of God because it rejects the authority of the rulers He has set up.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 June 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1275709151' post='2123956']
Yes, I watched the video. Same old same old. It attacks the authority of God because it rejects the authority of the rulers He has set up.
[/quote]

God "set up" Satan, too. What import does it bear?

The Catholic Church teaches that all authority comes from God. I don't contest that fact. The video says nothing about it, either. Power isn't a synonym for authority, as Pontius Pilate teaches us.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1275709304' post='2123958']
God "set up" Satan, too. What import does it bear?

The Catholic Church teaches that all authority comes from God. I don't contest that fact. The video says nothing about it, either. Power isn't a synonym for authority, as Pontius Pilate teaches us.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

The video does indeed attack the authority of rulers. It rejects the authority of people with "silly hats", then it shows stick figures with crowns and such.

Authority without the power to enforce that authority is not authority. I do not know why you give pretense that you agree with the Church when you do not. She supports the states right to use force to enforce the moral law. You do not. She supports the states right to tax. You do not. Amongst other things...

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 June 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1275709604' post='2123960']
The video does indeed attack the authority of rulers. It rejects the authority of people with "silly hats", then it shows stick figures with crowns and such.[/quote]

It isn't attacking their authority. It's denying they have a moral right to do some of the things they do. There's nothing wrong with that.

[quote]Authority without the power to enforce that authority is not authority.[/quote]

Authority is the moral power to command and expect obedience. It is not the right to use violence to inflict suffering on others to make them comply with your commands. Any attempt to coerce the will itself is a grave evil.

In the same logical vein that you espouse, is a right that you cannot effectively protect still a right? From your logic above, a woman who has no ability to physically prevent a rape upon one's person does not have the right to her physical integrity.

[quote]I do not know why you give pretense that you agree with the Church when you do not. She supports the states right to use force to enforce the moral law. You do not.
[/quote]

The Church allows the use of force to protect people from unjust aggression, period. It does not allow the use of force to make people pray, or to force Catholics go to Church on Sundays. (Morally binding requirements of the moral law.)

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1275710069' post='2123962']
It isn't attacking their authority. It's denying they have authority to do some of the things they do. There's nothing wrong with that. [/quote]

It does, and it attacks just use of their authority, as well as they unjust use.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1275710069' post='2123962']Authority is the moral power to command and expect obedience. It is not the right to use violence to inflict suffering on others to make them comply with your commands. Any attempt to coerce the will itself is a grave evil. [/quote]

I know very well you reject the power of authority to enforce authority. You've made it very clear, thousands of times.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1275710069' post='2123962']In the same logical vein that you espouse, is a right that you cannot effectively protect still a right? From your logic above, a woman who has no ability to physically prevent a rape upon one's person does not have the right to her physical integrity. [/quote]

As always you are a master at hyperboles, grasping at straws and pulling the wildest things out of your ###. Rape is against the moral law, women have the right not to be raped. But the state does have the right to use coercion to enforce the moral law and laws base upon moral law, and a citizen does have a duty to pay taxes.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 June 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1275710069' post='2123962']The Church allows the use of force to protect people from unjust aggression, period. It does not allow the use of force to make people pray, or to force Catholics go to Church on Sundays. (Morally binding requirements of the moral law.) [/quote]

You are also a master of straw men, I've never said that the Church or the State have a right to force people to pray. The State simply has the right to use coercion to enforce the moral law. It has the right to arrest people who break the moral law, and laws based on the moral law.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 June 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1275711051' post='2123967']
I know very well you reject the power of authority to enforce authority. You've made it very clear, thousands of times.[/quote]
Authority can't be enforced by men. One either has or does not have authority, authority being the [i]moral[/i] power of command. Authority [i]morally [/i]requires[i] [/i]obedience. It is [i]morally[/i] binding. Using physical force to uphold authority is like using torture to save souls.


[quote]As always you are a master at hyperboles, grasping at straws and pulling the wildest things out of your ###. Rape is against the moral law, women have the right not to be raped. But the state does have the right to use coercion to enforce the moral law and laws base upon moral law, and a citizen does have a duty to pay taxes. [/quote]

I'm making a logical comparison. You said that authority (a [i]moral[/i] power) is not authority (doesn't exist) without the physical ability to uphold it. That is logically the same as saying that one's moral right to not be raped doesn't exist if that [i]moral [/i]right can't [i]physically[/i] be enforced.


[quote]You are also a master of straw men, I've never said that the Church or the State have a right to force people to pray. The State simply has the right to use coercion to enforce the moral law. It has the right to arrest people who break the moral law, and laws based on the moral law.
[/quote]

Does the State have the right to use physical violence to enforce any aspect of the moral law? And what is the end of that violence? To enforce [i]physical[/i] compliance with a[i] moral [/i]law, or rather, to coerce the will itself, a grave evil?


~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

Personally I loved it.

And if nothing else voluntary translates to Love as well, for if we can do something out of our good will for someone is that not compassion and would that not breed a better soceity?

Yes, I can agree that this is ideal, but do we not have enough confidence in ourselves as Christians to be carrying out such an idea to our work places and/or among ourselves?

Excellent video. Good Job Stern for sharing.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I will see your cheesy cartoon and raise you a music video.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqZMTY4V7Ts[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9BNoNFKCBI[/media]

[Laudate_Dominum]

But srsly, I'd like to watch the cartoon soon and report on my overflowing feelings for it. Thanks for posting.

[KnightofChrist]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIfuaUTH9Y4[/media]

[KnightofChrist]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YWAqE9zrU4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YWAqE9zrU4[/media]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1275711824' post='2123976']
Authority can't be enforced by men. One either has or does not have authority, authority being the [i]moral[/i] power of command. Authority [i]morally [/i]requires[i] [/i]obedience. It is [i]morally[/i] binding. Using physical force to uphold authority is like using torture to save souls.




I'm making a logical comparison. You said that authority (a [i]moral[/i] power) is not authority (doesn't exist) without the physical ability to uphold it. That is logically the same as saying that one's moral right to not be raped doesn't exist if that [i]moral [/i]right can't [i]physically[/i] be enforced.




Does the State have the right to use physical violence to enforce any aspect of the moral law? And what is the end of that violence? To enforce [i]physical[/i] compliance with a[i] moral [/i]law, or rather, to coerce the will itself, a grave evil?


~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Seriously though if we're going to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]debate[/url] the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]same exact[/url] thing we just debate a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]couple days[/url] ago we may as well start [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]where we left off[/url] in that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]thread[/url]. This thread is just a way to try and forget that thread, a way to forget how you were put to silence, and how your views are not in line with the Church or reality.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='05 June 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1275773955' post='2124217']
Seriously though if we're going to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]debate[/url] the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]same exact[/url] thing we just debate a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]couple days[/url] ago we may as well start [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]where we left off[/url] in that [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=105377"]thread[/url]. This thread is just a way to try and forget that thread, a way to forget how you were put to silence, and how your views are not in line with the Church or reality.
[/quote]

Put to silence? No. You were copying and pasting again, not responding to my questions. I won't waste my time on that.

"All power comes from God. Every ruler is set up by God. Thus, [i]any [/i]exercise of power is an act in conformity with God's will. Physical violence can justly be used to coerce the will of other people into physically complying with an edict and/or any requirement of the moral law." That's what you're really saying, whether you realize it or not.

I'm saying that those who have power have their power from God, but that they, too, are bound by the same moral law that binds everyone else.

Now, please respond to the points in post number 10 in this thread. You, personally. In your own words.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1275774519' post='2124223']
Put to silence? No. You were copying and pasting again, not responding to my questions. I won't waste my time on that.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Again were talking about the same thing so we may as well start where we left off. I was sourcing my argue with writen Church documents, some Church documents which you have rejected as non-authoritative, such as the CCC, and encyclicals. So people can believe your wild conspiracy theories based on hate for the State or they can believe the Church.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='05 June 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1275774627' post='2124224']
Again were talking about the same thing so we may as well start where we left off. I was sourcing my argue with writen Church documents, some Church documents which you have rejected as non-authoritative, such as the CCC, and encyclicals. So people can believe your wild conspiracy theories based on hate for the State or they can believe the Church.
[/quote]

I don't hate the State as defined by Fr. Fagothey. Your entire argument hinges on the "official Catholic definition" of the State. It's defined marriage, it's defined the Eucharist, it's defined sin, it's defined baptism. But you've got no official definition of the State. Hard to work with that, Knight. The first step of any argument is to define and agree upon terms. We apparently can't do that, so you might as well keep saying I adhere to heresy. You'll be in the saintly company of Bellarmine, who said Galileo was preaching heresy.

~Sternhauser

Edited June 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 June 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1275775282' post='2124228']
I don't hate the State as defined by Fr. Fagothey. Your entire argument hinges on the "official Catholic definition" of the State. It's defined marriage, it's defined the Eucharist, it's defined sin, it's defined baptism. But you've got no official definition of the State. Hard to work with that, Knight. The first step of any argument is to define and agree upon terms. We apparently can't do that, so you might as well keep saying I adhere to heresy. You'll be in the saintly company of Bellarmine, who said Galileo was preaching heresy.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Have you ever noticed I'm the only one that disagrees with you that gives you a time of day? I have, know why? Because the vast majority know your views are well... silly at best, crazy at worse. Anyone who has not been influenced by the sin and heresy of anarchy or its daughters can go and look at that other thread and see your views aren't in line with the Church's. And also note that you do not deny that you reject the binding authority of the CCC, and encyclicals. Both of which do give a definition of the State, and say things counter to your beliefs such as paying taxes.

Again people can believe you or the Church, I pray they believe the Church.

Edited June 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist