How Would A Brain Transplant Work?

[XIX]

I wonder how all of this flushes out with heart transplants.

Also, I didn't read the thread. so sry if this has been covered already.

Edited June 13, 2010 by XIX

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='12 June 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1276391542' post='2127882']
Aren't the mind and brain synonymous? Where else would our thoughts and feelings reside?

I'm not sure it really matters what philosophers would theorize. Isn't it really a physiological question? Apparently there is some sort of "cell memory," but I think most of our memory and thoughts come from our brain, including what we would call our "spirit" or "soul." The reason I say this is that when the brain dies, the person's body remains. But, if you've ever seen a dead person (which, being Catholic, you probably have--many other religions often keep the coffin closed, and you never see the person dead), it's obvious that their spirit is no longer there, even though their body remains. I've never seen a brain-dead person (that is, someone who is truly brain-dead, but is being kept artifically "alive" for whatever reason--as opposed to someone in a coma, who is "still there"), but I would theorize that a brain-dead person would also appear to be without a "spirit" as well. Maybe someone who has actually seen a "brain dead" person would be able to tell us what it is like.
[/quote]

The mind and the brain are not synonymous. The mind/soul is the animating principle and I would argue is comprise of two different parts Intellect or rational soul and will or animal soul. The intellect is supposed to direct the will.

The brain and spirit/soul/mind are not the same; however, Body and Soul are one. Just because you transfer a brain doesn't mean you transfer a mind or a soul. And what happens to the mind/soul of the previous person whose body you are transfer the brain into? Being is one. Think of the union between Brain and Mind. They are obviously united in that brain chemistry can cause people to feel a certain way but at the same time we acknowledge that these feelings don't determine action. Unity and distinction. Just because a brain is switched doesn't mean a soul, which is the animating principle, is? What would animate the person who has the new organ. The distinction between body and soul is there but there is no necessary unity.

And as far as cell memory is concerned, it is more of a pop-science theory and has never been actually studied in any peer reviewed scientific journal. The idea is from some people claiming to have received memories after organ transplants who attribute some of their memories to those who donated their organs.

Scholastics understood the body as the undivided mid-point posed between a total abandonment to the other and an intrinsic independence over against the other. One comes to know something in that things impress its form on the person. The body allows the mind to receive the form since the mind cannot come know things through and in itself (the mind just can't know something, it must encounter it but the soul can't reach out to something. It must have a symbol to make present itself to other beings and which in some way participates in the soul/mind so that the soul can come to know something when something "other" impresses itself on it. This is what is meant between the mid-point posed between total abandonment to the other and an intrinsic independence over against "the other." The brain is incredibly close to the mind and informs the soul of how it is impinged upon. This, however, does not mean that the mind accurately puts all the information that it receives from the body correctly about what is impinging upon it or accurately understand how it is encountering a particular example which participates in a universal.

[add]

The soul is the source of life for the body, but not its spiritual activities of thinking and choosing. For the spiritual faculties or brain, the powers of operation need Intellect and will - which flow from the essence of the soul

The soul is not physical, nor nontransferable, as it is pure spirit.

Edited June 13, 2010 by apparently

[Ziggamafu]

I wonder if, in receiving another person's brain, you would also receive their memories and lose your own? You would still have the same spirit, but subjectively, you would think you were the other person.

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 June 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1276397346' post='2127925']
While it's a common mistake to make, it turns out that Mary Shelly was neither a philosopher nor a Catholic theologian.
I know, I was shocked too.
[/quote]

none the less, the fictional story does portray the limitations of brain transfer.



[quote]Posted Yesterday, 07:43 PM by[b]IgnatiusofLoyola[/b]

For whatever reason, this thread started meimagining what it would be like if Winchester's brain were transferred to mybody. Enjoy! [/quote]
Would you call this thing a Frankinchester?

[Winchester]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='12 June 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1276389837' post='2127873']
Socrates is probably more opposite of me in terms of temperament than Winchester is, but I think Winchester might actually find the transformation [b]intellectually [/b]interesting. [/quote]
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Winchester

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 June 2010 - 10:56 AM' timestamp='1276444577' post='2128087']
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
[/quote]

Are you saying that, rather than finding it a fascinating experience, you'd be horrified to find yourself in my body? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]

[Hassan]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='13 June 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1276445212' post='2128094']
Are you saying that, rather than finding it a fascinating experience, you'd be horrified to find yourself in my body? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]
[/quote]


A very interesting, and potentially awkward, way to phrase that.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Hassan' date='13 June 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1276451697' post='2128126']
A very interesting, and potentially awkward, way to phrase that. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/img]
[/quote]

For those who are pure of mind (including myself), and those who have read this thread, my sentence would not be misunderstood. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]

However, perhaps it would be more clear to say that Winchester would be horrified to wake up and find that doctors had performed a brain transplant, and had transplanted his brain into my head.

[Hassan]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='13 June 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1276452814' post='2128131']
For those who are pure of mind (including myself).
[/quote]


What are you insinuating, Spaniard?

Edited June 13, 2010 by Hassan

[kafka]

Well this is a difficult one. From what I've read about the brain, it seems an even more essential and vital to the body than even the heart organ, so I do not think a transplant is even possible. But if it were. . .

Human nature of made up of three elements, namely, soul-body-spirit which is a reflection of the Trinity.

Soul is immaterial made up of will-intellect-memory.
Body is material.
Spirit is the close connection, interaction and living union of the body and soul. The ancients used the word spirit, or breath of life and those qualities that pertain to life and to the cooperation of body and soul, such as heart and mind and emotion, consciousness etc. for example Hebrews:

{4:12} For the Word of God is living and effective: more piercing than any two-edged sword, reaching to the division even between the soul and the spirit, even between the joints and the marrow, and so it discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

the life of the body proceeds from the presence of the soul. And spirit proceeds from the living union between soul and body as from one principle.

Now if a new organ of the brain would be transfered I think the presence of the soul (will, intellect, memory) would attempt to rebuild or restructure it into a replica of the old removed one. The brain has placticity so it might be able to be shaped by the knowledge and memories stored up in the soul, but without the previous sense data, emotions, etc. a disruption of the spirit (close connection between body and soul) may ensue and make it impossible to recover. So one would essentially would retain the uniqueness of personhood according to previous acts yet not be able to fully express or recapture it in his body, spirit, life, emotions, etc.

When we receive our new resurrected bodies from God, I think he will create them in such a way that they will fit perfectly with all the unique goodness of our souls so a traumatic restructuring or readjustment will not be necessary. And resurrected bodies will also have special qualities.

[jeffpugh]

Nvm.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Sacred Music Man

[ardillacid]

If only a brain transplant were feasible for certain people here now

[kafka]

[quote name='kafka' date='13 June 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1276457044' post='2128180']
Now if a new organ of the brain would be transfered I think the presence of the soul (will, intellect, memory) would attempt to rebuild or restructure it into a replica of the old removed one. The brain has placticity so it might be able to be shaped by the knowledge and memories stored up in the soul, but without the previous sense data, emotions, etc. a disruption of the spirit (close connection between body and soul) may ensue and make it impossible to recover. So one would essentially would retain the uniqueness of personhood according to previous acts yet not be able to fully express or recapture it in his body, spirit, life, emotions, etc.
[/quote]
I rethought this. I do not think this is good thinking on my part. I think the problem is beyond me. The brain is among the most complex things God has created. And who can clearly explain the living interaction and connection between the body and soul? Impossible.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='13 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1276444325' post='2128082']
none the less, the fictional story does portray the limitations of brain transfer.

[/quote]
I disagree inasmuch as Frankenstein is fiction and has zero basis in reality. It portrays one possible scenario among an unknowable number of potential scenarios.

More importantly, there really was no "brain transfer" in Frankenstein. There was (according to Shelley's story) the creation of a new life from many unconnected pieces, based on pseudoscience which was reasonable at the time, but which we know now to be false (animating principle).

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='13 June 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1276475031' post='2128311']
I disagree inasmuch as Frankenstein is fiction and has zero basis in reality. It portrays one possible scenario among an unknowable number of potential scenarios.
[color="#ff0000"]
and this tread is based on reality?[/color]

More importantly, there really was no "brain transfer" in Frankenstein. There was (according to Shelley's story) the creation of a new life from many unconnected pieces, based on pseudoscience which was reasonable at the time, but which we know now to be false (animating principle).
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"]didn't Egor, steal a criminal brain instead of a honest brain or was that just in the movie[/color]


[color="#ff0000"]this tread is no brainer [/color]

[Mark of the Cross]

Forget all the chatter. I want a new brain marinated in serotonin.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='13 June 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1276475775' post='2128327']
[color="#ff0000"]didn't Egor, steal a criminal brain instead of a honest brain or was that just in the movie[/color]


[color="#ff0000"]this tread is no brainer [/color]
[/quote]
Igor is not part of the text. Shelley doesn't address anything about where the parts came from besides the fact that they were all cadavers.

[Socrates]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='12 June 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1276389837' post='2127873']

Socrates is probably more opposite of me in terms of temperament than Winchester is, but I think Winchester might actually find the transformation intellectually interesting. Socrates would simply be mad as heck to find himself in a woman's body, especially mine.
[/quote]

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='13 June 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1276476002' post='2128334']
Igor is not part of the text. Shelley doesn't address anything about where the parts came from besides the fact that they were all cadavers.
[/quote]

[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ_pKqiB5Rg"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dQ_pKqiB5Rg[/url][/media]