Are Our Criminals Treated Better Than The Victims?

[Selah]

[quote]I'm just asking to clarify: are you suggesting that we should have tortured McVeigh to death because he tortured 169 others? [/quote]

He should've gotten the chair, just like Bundy.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Selah

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 June 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1277398803' post='2133640']
He should've gotten the chair, just like Bundy.
[/quote]

Capital punishment is not about vengeance.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='24 June 2010 - 02:34 AM' timestamp='1277361253' post='2133577']
and I really don't think that he deserves or should get a T-bone steak, filet mignon and a bucket of KFC and milkshakes just because it's his last meal. (Which, keep in mind, is paid for by taxpayers).
[/quote]

Alternatively, for some people, a bucket of KFC itself could be a death sentence - I know I think I may need an angioplasty just thinking about it

Edited June 24, 2010 by Norseman82

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 June 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1277398803' post='2133640']
He should've gotten the chair, just like Bundy.
[/quote]
I thought you were a peace-loving hippie.


In my opinion, the fact that a person has done terrible things does not excuse us from treating them with basic respect and dignity. Seems to me that a single last meal is just a way to respect the fact that their life is about to be taken away. Morality of capital punishment notwithstanding, I think that the last meal is simply human decency. Sure, some people might take advantage of it, but that's not evidence that the concept itself is flawed.

[BibleReader]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 June 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1277398803' post='2133640']
He should've gotten the chair, just like Bundy.
[/quote]

It seems to me that you are more concerned about fairness and vengeance to make up for what wrongs have been committed than what is right. Christ taught us to show mercy on our enemies and to love all mankind no matter what. Although we may hate the actions from people terrorist bombers, Timothy McVeigh, Bundy, etc, we are still to love them as people. In God's any one sin is enough to send you to hell, if it wasn't for his undying mercy and love we would all have found destruction by now.

How can we show love to those if all we are concerned with is judging them and condemning them? Let the little things go that bother you about [i]justice[/i] and focus on how you may show them the love of God through your words and actions.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='BibleReader' date='24 June 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1277402995' post='2133673']
It seems to me that you are more concerned about fairness and vengeance to make up for what wrongs have been committed than what is right. Christ taught us to show mercy on our enemies and to love all mankind no matter what. Although we may hate the actions from people terrorist bombers, Timothy McVeigh, Bundy, etc, we are still to love them as people. In God's any one sin is enough to send you to hell, if it wasn't for his undying mercy and love we would all have found destruction by now.

How can we show love to those if all we are concerned with is judging them and condemning them? Let the little things go that bother you about [i]justice[/i] and focus on how you may show them the love of God through your words and actions.
[/quote]

[size="1"]I posted this in the "Execution by Firing Squad" thread, and I felt that it deserves to be repeated here, since some of the same themes are reoccurring:[/size]

But is the state's primary job mercy or protection of society? It would be great to accomplish both, but, if a choice is forced upon us, which prevails?

"13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling,

14 Or to governors as sent by him [b]for the punishment of evildoers[/b] and for the praise of the good."

1 Peter 2:13-14, DR, courtesy www.awmach.org; bolded emphasis mine.

Additionally, forgive me if I missed this, but I have not seen the subject of the death penaly as a deterrant having been discussed?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='24 June 2010 - 01:30 AM' timestamp='1277357409' post='2133543']
What do you want him to receive? Burn him alive? Is it not enough that we are executing him?
[/quote]
[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 June 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1277394515' post='2133622']
I believe there is no place for the systematic or intentional murder of human life in a civilized society, including the death penalty, abortion, and euthanasia. But given the situation where the death penalty is still exercised, giving a little bit of mercy to a person who has lived many years on death row is not unjust. It's not like fast-food is a nice meal anyway -- I hope someone's mother would make him a real meal!

[/quote]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 June 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1277399485' post='2133643']
Capital punishment is not about vengeance.
[/quote]
Agree on all accounts.

It is my belief that in the modern American prison system, where it is virtually impossible to escape from a "supermax" type prison, there is practically no need to utilise the death penalty (which, of course, should be used only in instances where it is the only viable way to protect society from the would-be continuing evil acts by the criminal in question).

[BibleReader]

That is true, yes. But so with it comes the authority that says they get a last request. Its not about which one is needed, because both are available. All I am trying to say, is our concern should not be of revenge, hatred, or judgment. We are to leave those things to God for His divine discretion. I believe the death penalty is not only necessary but just. This does not mean that my desire is for these men to die, but to be indifferent of it. Death is not the end, and by reflecting God's love we can help the Holy Spirit to work in men like these, to add another to the kingdom of God.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1277402789' post='2133669']
I thought you were a peace-loving hippie.


In my opinion, the fact that a person has done terrible things does not excuse us from treating them with basic respect and dignity. Seems to me that a single last meal is just a way to respect the fact that their life is about to be taken away. Morality of capital punishment notwithstanding, I think that the last meal is simply human decency. Sure, some people might take advantage of it, but that's not evidence that the concept itself is flawed.
[/quote]
i can't really remember, but what's the difference between human dignity and personal dignity?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='24 June 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1277404653' post='2133692']
i can't really remember, but what's the difference between human dignity and personal dignity?
[/quote]
Are those theological terms? I'm just speaking generally.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1277405878' post='2133702']
Are those theological terms? I'm just speaking generally.
[/quote]
i don't think they are theological terms

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='24 June 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1277406001' post='2133703']
i don't think they are theological terms
[/quote]
In that case, I have no idea. Is there a difference?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 June 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1277399485' post='2133643']
Capital punishment is not about vengeance.
[/quote]

Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)

[dominicansoul]

I think it is a little over the top to grant "dead men walking" elaborate last dinners and such...

I don't see how anyone in their situation could even eat, much less breathe...

[CatherineM]

Having spent some time on death row (and no, not on that side of the bars), the guards like for them to have large meals about 48 hours prior to their "appointment" the richer the better. When they are full, they tend to be calmer, or even sleep it off. Rich food after prison fare tends to go pretty quick through their system, and the more cleaned out they are the day before, the less mess to clean up after they are dead.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1277408279' post='2133710']
Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)
[/quote]
...not sure how that definition of vengeance relates to the way we view it today. Revenge/vindiate is different from saying "well he deserves to die so let's give him what he deserves."

The Magesterium seems to presuppose that vengeance is not a valid motivation for capital punishment. The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
[quote]
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'"[/quote]
Whether we need the death penalty to repress the offender is mostly speculation on the part of the Catechism and reasonable people can take either side of that debate. My point is that the Catechism doesn't even see the need to address vengeance as a reason for using the death penalty, seemingly because it's not a valid reason.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1277408279' post='2133710']
Well it depends upon how you define vengeance.

Vengeance on part of an individual is wrong, but vengeance on part of the State it is not always wrong so long as it is done in justice.

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37059"]Vengeance[/url]

The infliction of punishment on someone who has done moral wrong. In this sense, only God has the right to avenge wrongdoing. He may delegate this right to those in legitimate authority, as St. Paul declares, speaking of civil rulers, that "the authorities are there to serve God; they carry out God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4). (Etym. Latin vindicare, to revenge, vindicate.)
[/quote]

Merriam-Webster defines "vengeance" as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense". Capital punishment is not about retaliation (that would be a misuse) but about justice and the safety of society.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='24 June 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1277413058' post='2133752']
Merriam-Webster defines "vengeance" as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense". Capital punishment is not about retaliation (that would be a misuse) but about justice and the safety of society.
[/quote]

Webster's is speaking of the individual use of vengeance. Again depends on how you define it. A individual has no right to employ vengeance, "turn the other cheek". However, "vengeance is mine saith the Lord", God can justly employ vengeance, for the blood of innocent murder victims "cries up to God for vengeance", and He listens. Which is why He has appointed the State His "Avenger."

Vengeance like anger can be both just and unjust. It depends upon how and who employs either.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 June 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1277406300' post='2133704']
In that case, I have no idea. Is there a difference?
[/quote]
yes. i read it at an online journal once (perhaps First Things? or the Anchoress? or even here). one we can lose, and the other we can't. we can lose our personal dignity (through sin), but not our human dignity - i think that's how the argument went anyway.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 June 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1277413803' post='2133756']
Webster's is speaking of the individual use of vengeance.
[/quote]
How do you know? Use arguments, not assertions.