Christianity And Judaism Versus Mythology

[southern california guy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='26 June 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1277609836' post='2134759']
I was under the impression that if one is not in a fit state during the exchange of vows, an annulment can be sought. "Not in a fit state" would mean, for example, that one was under the influence of drugs and or alcohol, that one was not in a proper state of mental health, that one was lying, that one fully determined to push contraception on his or her spouse, etc.
[/quote]

Here's a quote from an article in the Concord Monitor:

[color="#000080"]Church courts in the United States, however, have broadened acceptable criteria for psychological incapacity to include almost anything, from personality traits such as self-centeredness, moodiness or being eager to please to unproven "disorders," which may be embellished into full-blown mental illness, a practice that has prompted critics to refer to Canon 1095 as the "loose canon."[/color]

( http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/the-loose-canon-in-the-catholic-church )

[HisChildForever]

I don't have time to read the article right now. Surprisingly, modernism has infiltrated the minds of many "Catholics". In any event, what is the point [i]you[/i] are trying to make?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='27 June 2010 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1277653096' post='2134899']
I don't have time to read the article right now. Surprisingly, modernism has infiltrated the minds of many "Catholics". In any event, what is the point [i]you[/i] are trying to make?
[/quote]

Good question. My convoluted sort of point was that Christianity is becoming more like mythology -- with fewer and looser moral values. It's almost like the "mythology" side of the religion is being emphasized over the moral. You know people worried about the age of the earth, whether dinosaurs were real, whether there is life in outer space or if we are it, worried about creationism versus evolution, upset about Harry Potter movies, worried about whether Jesus was literally god, worried about whether the host is literally the body of Christ..

But I hear little talk about the morality as Jesus Christ taught it in the New Testament. And he spent a large part of the New Testament trying to teach people how to live. If anything people, and "Christian" religions, seem to be finding ways around what he taught -- while still claiming to be followers of Christ. They take a broader vaguer approach to Christianity and focus on the loving side of Jesus -- and ignore the morality he taught.

I didn't use to think that divorce was that big of a deal but I've changed my mind. I think that divorce -- the breakdown of the family -- is the central cause of most social problems of today. An intact family provides a safe protective place for kids to grow up in. And it helps them to become well adjusted adults. When you divorce you're not just showing a lack of regard for the vows you took to each other and god, you're showing a lack of respect for your kids. And I think that birth control and abortion follow naturally. And I think that men who view women as wives and mothers view them with more respect. I think that a big problem with porn is that takes the viewpoint away. Birth control and abortion also lead to this viewpoint. And now-a-days many Christians think that premarital sex is okay -- and along with that so is birth control and abortion. How surprising is it that when they get married they get divorced?

I think that the morality taught in the bible is much more important than what I'd term as "mythology". But Erin I think that I'm sort of preaching to the choir. I've read your posts and you're one of my favorite people in this "phorum". I really like the strong positions that you take on things. You're not afraid to speak your mind, and that's unusual. Perhaps the biggest difference between us is that I'm not a very good Catholic anymore. I miss Mass all the time. I never go to confession. And there are many Catholic priests that I have little respect for. I don't think much of Vatican II.

When I lived up in Washington my parents stopped taking us to Mass when the priests started supporting homosexuality. They actually did! They would say things like "Homosexuals are just another type of a family", and they held special Masses for homosexuals called "Dignity Mass". Don't you like who they carefully chose the word "Dignity"? The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic church are a pet peeve of mine. I went to one of Archbishop Hunthausen's "Listening Sessions" about having female priests in the Catholic church. It was interesting. The "Listening Session" was where he would listen -- without commenting -- as various people got up and spoke. It was held in a classroom in a Catholic school. I sat in the back where some of the teachers from the school yelled out things at people as they got up and spoke against female priests. I would get banned from the forum is I quoted them. They used the f-word a bit.

The first people who spoke argued against things like girls serving as alter servers (Which doesn't bother me in the least), and pianos and guitars being used in Mass rather than the organ. They saw female priests as further change that they didn't want. And at the time I thought their arguments were pretty weak.

The listening session was controlled by people with lists of the people who wanted to talk and they decided who spoke first. As the listening session was running out of time there was a small group of people protesting to Hunthausen because they hadn't gotten to talk. To his credit he let them get up and speak even though it really made the group, at the back of the room with me, angry.

The last group of people who spoke had a completely different viewpoint. They said that they did not have a problem with alter girls, with whether the host was placed on their tongue or in their hand, with whether the piano and guitars were used rather than the organ -- what they cared about was what the priest taught in the sermon, or homily as they call it now. Several of the women who wanted to be priests were at the listening session, and it was pointed out that these women were lesbians and their sermons would probably be pro-homosexual and not in line with the old Catholic Baltimore Catechism (Which I confess that I never really learned..).

So I'm not really worried about the ritual, the ceremony, the songs, or Christian mythology. I want to hear good old-fashioned Catholic morality taught. I feel that without it all we're really left with is "Christian Mythology"..

[HisChildForever]

It's great to see that you've given this a lot of thought. Over 99% of us on the forum acknowledge, like you, that the heresy of modernism has invaded the Church. The Church Herself doesn't teach modernism, but some of Her leaders have become corrupt (i.e. priests) and some of Her followers have become corrupt (i.e. parishioners). Unfortunately, you've witnessed this firsthand. You shouldn't let the sins of the fallen disrupt your love of God and His Church, however. Go to Mass and Confession not only for the sake of your soul but to set a good example for others. A lot of Catholics these days don't know any better, and we're basically "competing" against modernism for their attention.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 June 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1277533784' post='2134447']
Personally, I always wondered if the ancient Greeks and Romans et. al. actually believed in that whole pantheon. I mean... they weren't dumb people. I wonder if it was just a part of their culture rather than something they literally believed.
[/quote]


Well, why would they need to be dumb people to believe it? Usually, in my experience, people find the ancient mythologies unbelievable for any one of intelligence for two main reasons. Because their religion seems counter-intuitive and there is no rational basis for believing it to be true. I think the flaw in this viewpoint is clear if you only consider yourself. You believe that at the moment of concentration at mass the substance of what was formerly bread and wine is transformed into the substance of Christ himself. For anyone who was raised outside of a Christian/Catholic culture this would be a highly counter-intuitive idea. While your Church teaches that the truths of faith are discoverable to human reason, there is of yet no set of serious, rational arguments that really could really argue an individual to accept the whole of your religion. Yet plenty of ery intelligent people believe in your religion. A extraordinarily brilliant philosopher, Alasdair MacIntyre, actually converted to the faith not all that long ago. Neither he, nor any serious thinking Catholic I know of, claims that he could rationally argue an individual to the whole of your faith. Usually, they find grounds for believing a part of your faith to be true, accept the rest on faith, and content themselves with arguing that a rational, intelligent individual could believe the rest to be true, even if there is not actual positive evidence for it. That is, the rest cannot be exactly disprove.

The same is true for Islam and all the other major religions. I don't think that from an objective point of view either Islam or Christianity are more rational than the polytheistic cultures they disparage. However cultural biases makes the absurdities of our religions seem less concocted and half-baked than the absurdities of other religions. The Homeric gods were not abandoned because scientists and philosophers disproved them. Like modern religions their claims were such that it was difficult or impossible to really disprove their claims. They died off simply because most people found a different set of religious beliefs to subscribe too and the old ways lost their appeal. I think we are seeing this today with Christianity. Church's haven't become so much more empty in the last few decades because startling new evidence has debunked Christianity, the most damaging intellectual evidence against Christianity as been available for at least a century, instead most people are moving away because new worldviews have becoming believable (consider AJ Ayer's famous comment that Darwinism allowed one to be an intellectually satisfied atheist, modern science hasn't strictly debunked God, but it has allowed many people to see how their world could be coherently explained without assigning it's existence to God's direct involvement) and the older world view of Christianity has lost it's emotional benefits (Sartre made the point that all across Europe people individually conceived existentialism following the absurdity and horrors of WWII which Christianity couldn't supply an emotionally satisfying explanation for).

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='25 June 2010 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1277520873' post='2134390']
Back when I was in grade school I loved mythology. I read every Greek mythology story I could find. The Roman mythology was pretty good too. And the Arabian Nights stories were great. I found the Egyptian mythology less exciting but I still read the stories.

One story, in Egyptian mythology, that atheists like to point to is the story of Osiris. They like to draw parallels between the story of Osiris and Jesus. If I remember the story correctly Osiris was executed, fought his way through the underworld, and on the third day he rose from the dead -- as a god! As I understand it the pyramids and elaborate Egyptian tombs were a preparation for the battle in the underworld after death. They wanted to become gods like Osiris.

Mythology is similar to religion. Some of the stories are similar, but Judaism Christianity in my opinion, differed radically from earlier mythology because it emphasized moral values to live by. Where were the moral values in mythology? Most of the stories were about getting a woman, or appeasing the gods. I can't think of any parallel between the Ten Commandments in Moses and mythology. And then there is the New Testament. The astrology (Jesus born under a star) and the parallels to Egyptian mythology aside the New Testament is full of moral teachings. In some cases they are revisions to the Old Testament. Like "Turn the other cheek", or Jesus arguing that any man who divorces his wife and remarries is committing adultery -- despite what Moses instructed concerning divorce and remarriage. I can't remember anything in mythology that was similar.

But it seems to me that modern Christianity is more like ancient mythology. There aren't any moral teachings anymore. Nobody concerns themselves with what Jesus taught about divorce and remarriage anymore. If they are Christian they simply argue that Jesus is a loving god and all you have to do if pray for forgiveness after divorce -- and then when you remarry it's not adultery. And the Catholics would argue that you just play along with the Catholic games that allow you to get an "annulment" -- and that is "exactly the same as never having been married" (Emperor's Fine Clothes). People don't worry about breaking the Third Commandment "Thou shalt not take the lord thy gods name in vain" -- which is what you do when you take a vow to god that you don't keep.

Instead modern Christianity seems to focus on "worship" on prayer. It reminds me of leaving sacrifices on alters to appease the gods. It seems like prayer is focused on getting on Jesus or Gods graces. People seem to have forgotten about Sodom and Gomorrah and the priesthood -- as well as pastors and ministers in protestant religions -- are full of openly non-repentant homosexuals. They know that the way they can change religion is to get involved and run things. And not surprisingly the gospels are vague -- and don't come close to discussing specific moral principles like Jesus did.

What would happen if more and more Pastors and Priests were to start speaking out against homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, sexual relations out of wedlock, and abortion? (At least some preach against abortion). Would people drop out of the religion? Would the divorcees, and homosexuals, and people living together out of wedlock get angry and throw a fit?

Has modern religion deteriorated into a sort of modern mythology -- lacking the moral basis of Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it??????
[/quote]
It seems that unfortunately you've to some extent bought into the whole Modernist idea that the Christian religion is essentially merely a moral code and aspects of the Faith such as worship are mere "mythology," and not really important.

I agree with you 100% about the importance of morality in the Catholic Faith, but I 100% disagree that there is today too much of an emphasis on worship and prayer. Worship and prayer and the Sacraments (particularly the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) are not just peripherals to the Christian Faith, but central to it.
The Christian Faith is in fact about worship and sacrifice to God, and it is through God's graces given to us in prayer and the sacraments that we are able to live moral lives and obey God's commandments.

Worship and morality are not opposed to one another nor detract from one another, but compliment and go together.

Where there is an emphasis on prayer and right worship, there will be an emphasis on morality and keeping God's commandments. When people take worship seriously, they take morality seriously. When they stop taking worship seriously, they sooner or later stop taking morality seriously.

This is confirmed by both history and my own experiences. Generally, parishes and priests that are serious about worship, prayer and liturgy are also serious about preaching morality, including unpopular sexual moral teachings.
Where priests and parishioners are not serious about worship, and "do their own thing" liturgically and theologically, and church is essentially reduced to a social club, they usually also do whatever they like in the moral areas, and ignore Church moral teaching that they find inconvenient.

Every good priest has told me that if I want to live a moral life, I must have a good prayer life and worship God.

All the saints, who lived extraordinarily moral lives, had very serious prayer lives, and spent their lives in worship.

Liberal protestant churches that tried to reduce Christianity to a moral or social code, and tried to "de-mythologize" the Christian religion and strip it of supernatural elements all wound up denying all the inconvenient aspects of Christian morality as well. The same with so-called "liberal Catholics" who followed in their footsteps.

There is a problem in the Church, but it's certainly not too much emphasis on worship. We don't need to "de-mythologize" the Catholic Faith, but we need more emphasis on true worship and prayer, as well as morality.

SoCal Guy, you need to stop being so tied up with bad dissident priests and parishes, and maybe start paying attention to what the Church actually teaches on moral matters for a change. Maybe you should try to find a good FSSP parish or something.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='27 June 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1277659679' post='2134941']
Good question. My convoluted sort of point was that Christianity is becoming more like mythology -- with fewer and looser moral values. It's almost like the "mythology" side of the religion is being emphasized over the moral. You know people worried about the age of the earth, whether dinosaurs were real, whether there is life in outer space or if we are it, worried about creationism versus evolution, upset about Harry Potter movies,[b] worried about whether Jesus was literally god, worried about whether the host is literally the body of Christ..[/b]
[/quote]
Do regard the divinity of Christ and the Real Presence as trivial or silly issues?

If so, it seems you've lost the whole point of the Catholic Faith (or indeed, of being Christian).

The first issue you need to decide on is whether Jesus Christ really is God become Man, and whether He really did die and resurrect to save us from our sins.
If you don't believe that, or think it's only "mythology," then, pardon my bluntness, you're not Christian, and I don't see why the moral issues should matter so much to you.

If following Jesus won't really get us to heaven, what's the big deal? You can (theoretically, at least) practice sexual abstinence or whatever without believing in Jesus, if that's the only part of the Faith you care about.

I'm not downplaying your concern for sexual morality, but it seems you have some bigger issues at stake. It seems you want to keep Catholic morality, while downplaying anything spiritual, but the truth is it just doesn't work that way.

Also, I think it should be noted that those who strongly defend doctrines such as the divinity of Christ and the Real Presence also tend to strongly defend Catholic moral teachings, while those who contradict or downplay key theological teachings such as the divinity of Christ and the Real Presence also tend to contradict or downplay Catholic morality.

Theological and moral orthodoxy usually go hand-in-hand, as do theological and moral dissent.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Socrates