Eu V Usa

[dairygirl4u2c]

people say that the US was meant to be more state oriented- that states are suppose to have and did have more power. often the EU is shown as an example of how autonomous states still can be united, but not be so unified in spending and its daily affairs, as the US is today. the EU is also shown as example of how it was and could be in the US.

some say the US would be stronger if we'd have stayed more local. do you think the EU would overthrow the US in terms of power because of this? if another reason would stop the EU, but that state oriented aspect makes it stronger, what aspects are stopping it?

(not sure why i post political stuff at a religious website. surely more knowledgeable people elsewhere. force of habit i suppose.

Edited July 1, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

id probably say, in theory i like the US structure as it is, but in practice, EU might be better.

[Winchester]

What in the Hell do you have against proper grammar?

[Arco]

The US is the way the US is set up because the previous confederation model -- in use prior to 1789 -- was profoundly broken, and by a wide margin less strong than the current. Your questions are unfortunately vague in this regard, but let me tell you that the EU is itself quite broken, and has been trying to consolidate its governmental organs and powers so as to be more effective on the world stage as a unit. Right now, it is quite a bit weaker than the United States in terms of its ability to project power of any sort outward: it lacks a unified command structure, it cannot impose its will upon its own members with any amount if efficacy, it has difficulty setting its own monetary policy, and so on. The confederal structure of the EU is simply not anything that can be sustained in the long term; the EU wants to be a *state*, or it wants not to exist at all. It can't be somewhere in between; this league they have is untenable.

So no, the US is in no danger of the EU overwhelming it as long as the EU remains the way it is -- statelike, but not sovereign. It has no control over its own destiny, and is instead subject to the whims and caprices of 26 member states with competing interests and little incentive for cooperation.

The US followed a similar model under the Articles of Confederation, which were abandoned because of a basic inability on the part of the central government to function effectively, precisely the same problem the EU has today.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='01 July 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1277996899' post='2136557']
surely more knowledgeable people elsewhere.
[/quote]



[quote name='Winchester' date='01 July 2010 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1277997298' post='2136559']
What in the Hell do you have against proper grammar?
[/quote]

THIS is why I am president of your fan club.

[Hassan]

the eu stracture doesnt have a unified purpose like that guy said but also it has the problem like with russian and some baltic countries and from the old soviet block of defining its european identity so like now germany is reemerging as the central power kind of like in years before of europe thi has been a fear of europe for some time at least dating back to richeliu and stuff but now that germany is unified and the like it has definitly pulled the center of gravity towards it and worse yet and this has really always been the nightmare of western europe german is tying itself to russia so how will the eu deal with this i mean if germany and russia become close working partners then the center of gravity in europe will be definitively tilted to the east but and one of the dominating powers wont even be in the eu but it (russia) can't be brought is because it has such a large population that it would like take over the eu parliment thingy and such you know and anyway the id issue extends like to turkey i mean it just seems like a really triky id issue u know?

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 July 2010 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1278005109' post='2136634']
the eu stracture doesnt have a unified purpose like that guy said but also it has the problem like with russian and some baltic countries and from the old soviet block of defining its european identity so like now germany is reemerging as the central power kind of like in years before of europe thi has been a fear of europe for some time at least dating back to richeliu and stuff but now that germany is unified and the like it has definitly pulled the center of gravity towards it and worse yet and this has really always been the nightmare of western europe german is tying itself to russia so how will the eu deal with this i mean if germany and russia become close working partners then the center of gravity in europe will be definitively tilted to the east but and one of the dominating powers wont even be in the eu but it (russia) can't be brought is because it has such a large population that it would like take over the eu parliment thingy and such you know and anyway the id issue extends like to turkey i mean it just seems like a really triky id issue u know?
[/quote]
[quote name='Winchester' date='01 July 2010 - 08:14 AM' timestamp='1277997298' post='2136559']
What in the Hell do you have against proper grammar?
[/quote]

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='01 July 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1278006215' post='2136643']

[/quote]

[size="1"]He's being facetious.[/size]

Edited July 1, 2010 by Marie-Therese

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 July 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1278005109' post='2136634']
the eu stracture doesnt have a unified purpose like that guy said but also it has the problem like with russian and some baltic countries and from the old soviet block of defining its european identity so like now germany is reemerging as the central power kind of like in years before of europe thi has been a fear of europe for some time at least dating back to richeliu and stuff but now that germany is unified and the like it has definitly pulled the center of gravity towards it and worse yet and this has really always been the nightmare of western europe german is tying itself to russia so how will the eu deal with this i mean if germany and russia become close working partners then the center of gravity in europe will be definitively tilted to the east but and one of the dominating powers wont even be in the eu but it (russia) can't be brought is because it has such a large population that it would like take over the eu parliment thingy and such you know and anyway the id issue extends like to turkey i mean it just seems like a really triky id issue u know?
[/quote]

[Hilde]

What's the EU? Sounds made-up.

[Nihil Obstat]

The E.U. is lame.

I've always found it ironic that the French abbreviate U.S.A. instead as E.U. (Etats-Unis).

[Arco]

And they abbreviate EU UE -- Union Europeanne

[Winchester]

If not for us, they'd be abbreviating it "Germany."

[dairygirl4u2c]

seems like i always see that the EU is slightly ahead of the USA, in various polls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

wonder why people say their structure makes them weaker in theory and in practice? just because they are not the USA?

[Arco]

The EU's GDP has virtually nothing to do with unified policy established by the EU and virtually everything to do with being modern post-industrial economies.

The argument we're responding to is that the EU's lack of centralization somehow would make them some sort of powerhouse, whereas in fact the EU's lack of centralization presents all the same problems the US's lack of centralization preseneted in the 1780's -- disparate powers with little reason to cooperate pursuing individual interests to the detriment of the union. See: Greece. Were the EU to set a unified monetary policy, the Greek disaster would not have happened.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Arco

[dairygirl4u2c]

there's lots of die hard confederates here, and federalists, etc. seems like those people would vote, and make their points in these posts, saying how the EU is that much stronger for their decentralized power.
you have a well balanced approach, labeling the pros and cons of centralization. there's many here who are not well balanced.

[Nihil Obstat]

The E.U. uses rich nations to prop up the poor ones. If that's an inherent strength, then we'd still have a Soviet Union, and China wouldn't have needed to liberalize its economic system. It's a weakness in theory and in practice.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='03 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1278173519' post='2137363']
seems like i always see that the EU is slightly ahead of the USA, in various polls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

wonder why people say their structure makes them weaker in theory and in practice? just because they are not the USA?
[/quote]

No it is because these countries can't deficit spend. With fiat money, money doesn't really have value beyond what the government says it does (not to mention that it is unconstitutional b/c our money currently is a federal reserve not, not a note or legal tender of the US Treasury which the Constitution spells out but that is beside the point). In this way, (as in WWII) when the economy is bas, government can spend money and print more money putting people to work. Think, if the government doesn't have money but wants to stimulate the economy, it can scrap its government fleets of cars and buy new ones. This puts automotive people to work. This means steel has to be made, rubber, people have to build the cars, electronics, these people spend the money putting others to work and this helps the economic downturn (recovery from Great Depression just replace cars with tanks and bombers and you get why we got out of the Depression- btw, our money is still fiat money and this can be done). The nations in the EU do not have that power (minus Germany) to print their money this way. This is why Greece basically defaulted on their loans and Germany could buy everything up (now they own Greece like they wanted to in the World Wars, ironic). Definite disadvantage.

People are stupid and don't think. These "countries in the EU" are quickly becoming like our states as far as economics goes and having to have a balanced budget and not being able to deficit spend (minus Germany who comes out on top in all of this and England which wisely doesn't use the Euro). Economically, in a recession or depression, the U.S. is stronger and more viable. People are stupid and just love the europeans and don't think that is why people vote for them.

[Arco]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='03 July 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1278184031' post='2137447']
The E.U. uses rich nations to prop up the poor ones. If that's an inherent strength, then we'd still have a Soviet Union, and China wouldn't have needed to liberalize its economic system. It's a weakness in theory and in practice.
[/quote]

So does the United States.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Arco' date='12 July 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1278951952' post='2141646']
So does the United States.
[/quote]
I think it's a witness when you (and we) do it as well.

It's just worse over there.