HisChildForever Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1278172156' post='2137353'] I agree with you that we should do what God would do. Do you think God ignores Hitchens desire for God to not help him or do you think he honors that? The act of salvation begins with God. The act of rejection begins with man. Again, I'm not stating that I have the end all argument on this. But I think it goes deeper than what others on the board prefer. [/quote] The fact that Hitchens explicitly asked for no prayers suggests that during this time of illness he is actually thinking about God. Therefore, perhaps God is working on his heart. In the end, we do not know. But it is always better to be safe than sorry, and thus praying is the best route to take. Do you think that Saul (Paul) would ask Christians to pray for him? Of course not! But was God ignoring Saul? In other words, was Saul so far gone from God that God wanted nothing to do with him? Absolutely not, God cared for Saul so much that He literally knocked him off his high horse. Edit: I went through the article again and I do not see a quote from Hitchens saying "Do not pray for me" - I thought I had, but realized what I read was the [i]implication[/i] that Hitchens wanted no prayers. Although I do stick by what I said, for I am sure that Hitchens (based on his hatred of religion) would tell people not to pray for him, granted that is an assumption. Edited July 3, 2010 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1278172609' post='2137357'] I'm not laughing at you, I promise... I just think this example is funny. It makes you the enemy of Justin Bieber's music. Yes, of course he can reject God's grace; however, even the very fact that he is alive is grace. The food he eats is grace, the air he breathes is grace... he is even offered a very spiritual type of grace. Hitchens is offered the grace of conversion every day, and the name for this type of grace is [i]actual[/i] grace. That is the type of grace I referred to when I said Hitchens could not be free of grace on this earth... yes he can still reject it. Like Pharaoh before him this grace may harden is heart... but it is there. [b] hot stuff, to refuse to pray for enemies of the Church is the work of the Devil. I know it is not willful cooperation in evil on your part, but it is evil to adamantly beaver dam every living man who is not a member of the Church, and that is what you have done.[/b] [/quote] See this is where a nice discussion goes bad. Show me where I've ever said that. Show me once where I've ever made such a horrible statement. When you can't, recant and apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1278129209' post='2137236'] When a 16 year old takes the position of "Well there's nothing I can teach you" then he's assuming he CAN teach me something. That is inappropriate and arrogant. and yes I called him a twerp because I am disappointed that i spent any time trying to calm folks down when a little 12 year old Thomas More showed up and annoyed the croutons out of most of the folks around this place. I've gently corrected Tyler in the past. I know the results. [/quote] Wait a sec... Rexi is St. Thomas More? I never would have guessed! Rexi, you've grown a lot in maturity. Keep up the good work! More generally, I grew tired of online debates after seeing them go in circles and cause personal animosity in the years I was on a forum even before I joined Phatmass. I did learn, however, that if they are to be productive it is important for both sides (or all sides) to try to really understand their opponent(s)'s viewpoint(s). When this is done, it [list=1] [*] avoids personal animosity and brings more respect for each opponent and their viewpoint, because few people believe something that is entirely without merit; [*] allows the debate to be productive, because the core of the other person's objection can be answered, rather than dancing around peripheral issues; and [*] gives the debater practice for the critical reading portion of the SAT, as he has to infer what the real issue is from a multitude of posts. [/list] 3. is, of course, the most important benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1278172260' post='2137355'] The squabble is that I struggle with the notion of praying for someone who has explicitly asked me not to pray for them. And according to members of Phatmass, I am the pawn of the devil [/quote] Oh, I see. Thanks! Since I've not read the bulk of the discussion I'll just keep my thoughts to myself. Prolly already been said anyway. Ima go drink beer and ponder this topic a bit... Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1278173115' post='2137358'] The fact that Hitchens explicitly asked for no prayers suggests that during this time of illness he is actually thinking about God. Therefore, perhaps God is working on his heart. In the end, we do not know. But it is always better to be safe than sorry, and thus praying is the best route to take. Do you think that Saul (Paul) would ask Christians to pray for him? Of course not! But was God ignoring Saul? In other words, was Saul so far gone from God that God wanted nothing to do with him? Absolutely not, God cared for Saul so much that He literally knocked him off his high horse. [/quote] Paul is a bad example HCF. He was a Jew the whole time. He thought he was working for the good of God when he was killing Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1278173200' post='2137359'] See this is where a nice discussion goes bad. Show me where I've ever said that. Show me once where I've ever made such a horrible statement. When you can't recant and apologize. [/quote] To refuse to pray for men who hate the Church and therefore ask that you don't pray is to deny them grace that might save them, and is, in effect, to beaver dam them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 I know it a little out of left field, but there are probably about 6 billion people i dont pray for on a regular basis, and thie guy hitchens is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1278173526' post='2137364'] To refuse to pray for men who hate the Church and therefore ask that you don't pray is to deny them grace that might save them, and is, in effect, to beaver dam them. [/quote] You don't read well. Show me where I've said that. Show me where I've said [quote][b]but it is evil to adamantly beaver dam every living man who is not a member of the Church, and that is what you have done.[/b][/quote] when you can't, recant and apologize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1278173526' post='2137364'] To refuse to pray for men who hate the Church and therefore ask that you don't pray is to deny them grace that might save them, and is, in effect, to beaver dam them. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1278173375' post='2137362'] Paul is a bad example HCF. He was a Jew the whole time. He thought he was working for the good of God when he was killing Christians. [/quote] God still wanted Paul for the kingdom, despite his atrocious crimes. You cannot disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1278173526' post='2137364'] To refuse to pray for men who hate the Church and therefore ask that you don't pray is to deny them grace that might save them, and is, in effect, to beaver dam them. [/quote] Whoa. I would hate to be beaver damed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Aalpha I've seen what you've written SHOW ME WHERE I'VE MADE THAT QUOTE. Stop being obtuse and apologize. oh and suggesting that I have the power to banish anyone to hell is certainly not within Catholic teaching. you might want to learn about your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 July 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1278173831' post='2137370'] Whoa. I would hate to be beaver damed. [/quote] lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1278173803' post='2137369'] God still wanted Paul for the kingdom, despite his atrocious crimes. You cannot disagree with that. [/quote] YES he did. And he wants Hitchens for his kingdom just as much as he wanted Paul! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 July 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1278173831' post='2137370'] Whoa. I would hate to be beaver dam[b]m[/b]ed. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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