aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1278173883' post='2137371'] Aalpha I've seen what you've written SHOW ME WHERE I'VE MADE THAT QUOTE. Stop being obtuse and apologize. [/quote] I apologize for the vagueness of my statement... you have not damned every living man who is not a member of the Church. I should have said you damned every anti-theist who asked that we do not pray for him. This apology is sincere, I should have been clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1278174046' post='2137376'] I apologize for the vagueness of my statement... you have not damned every living man who is not a member of the Church. I should have said you damned every anti-theist who asked that we do not pray for him. This apology is sincere, I should have been clearer. [/quote] Again, you go outside the teachings of the Church. I do not have the power to send anyone to hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1278174128' post='2137377'] Again, you go outside the teachings of the Church. I do not have the power to send anyone to hell [/quote] I know you don't have that power. Of course I don't mean that you literally sit in the seat of judgment and cast evil men and angels into Hell, saying "Depart from me, for I never knew you". All I mean is that using your arguments and logic there is no way to view these men except as beyond salvation and hope. You betray a lack of hope by refusing to pray for them, and consider them cut off and already burning in the lake of fire. If this is not so, then you must pray for them. I might add that if I ever [i]do[/i] go outside the teachings of the Church (and never once have you been correct in that accusation) it is out of ignorance and not out of malice. Edited July 3, 2010 by aalpha1989 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1278174002' post='2137374'] YES he did. And he wants Hitchens for his kingdom just as much as he wanted Paul! [/quote] Exactly. So why not pray for Hitchens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1278174325' post='2137378'] I know you don't have that power. Of course I don't mean that you literally sit in the seat of judgment and cast evil men and angels into Hell, saying "Depart from me, for I never knew you". All I mean is that using your arguments and logic there is no way to view these men except as beyond salvation and hope. You betray a lack of hope by refusing to pray for them, and consider them cut off and already burning in the lake of fire. If this is not so, then you must pray for them. [/quote] Then don't make such horrible statements Jonathon to try to sway others to your argument. You've accused me of being the pawn of the devil, da[color="#000000"]m[/color]ning everyone to hell who isn't in the Church and now da[color="#000000"]m[/color]ning everyone to hell who asks for it. This kind of hyperbole doesn't exactly make me want to keep on engaging you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1278174366' post='2137379'] Exactly. So why not pray for Hitchens? [/quote] Saul, as a good Jew, probably asked for God's guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1278164806' post='2137324'] No I do not see prayer as coercive at all. I see free will as the first and greatest gift given to humanity. I don't believe I have the right to impede anyone's free will ... You have the right to ask to be prayed for. Christopher Hitchens has the same right by virtue of free will to ask not to be prayed for. I don't think its evil for anyone to say "I'm praying for you anyway" But I also think its not evil to honor the man's wishes. [/quote] Hmmm... because, naturally, I'm trying to understand why you feel that praying for someone who explicitly does not want prayer violates his free will. Obviously it violates his wish, but that's not the same as violating his free will -- it doesn't force him to do something regardless of his choice (hence my idea that you might think prayer to be coercive). So what do you see praying for him as doing that is offensive? You have mentioned the idea of honouring/not violating his wishes a few times now, I think, so it might have something to do with that. Do you find the situation somewhat similar to entering and cleaning up the house of someone who has made it clear that he prefers to live like a slob? Or forcing one's companionship on a solitary grouch who hates being around people? That the violation is of a (perceived) right to order one's (spiritual) surroundings (so by prayer you would be violating Christopher Hitchen's right to insulate himself against God, or something)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 I'm not sure I buy Htichen's statement that he would not worship God even if His existence was proven to him, mainly because his perception of the Creator is merely a vengeful, egotistical, sadistic god-of-the-gaps. Who would want to worship that? Is his perception of God grossly misguided? yes, so he would probably reject his idea of prayer but that's probably because he doesn't understand what prayer really is. If he genuinely an atheist prayer to him is just talking to an imaginary friend in the sky to make yourself feel better, but I'm not doing that, so in essence I don't even see how that could [i]potentially[/i] violate his free will. I guess that's just a new angle of looking at it. But for the record even if someone did believe in God's existence and hated Him and understood the gravity of his animosity, I'd still pray for said person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1278174481' post='2137380'] Then don't make such horrible statements Jonathon to try to sway others to your argument. You've accused me of being the pawn of the devil, da[color="#000000"]m[/color]ning everyone to hell who isn't in the Church and now da[color="#000000"]m[/color]ning everyone to hell who asks for it. This kind of hyperbole doesn't exactly make me want to keep on engaging you. [/quote] I haven't used hyperboles, and I have never used ad hominems. I apologized for my lack of clarity, but I will not retract my statement that you are deceived by the Devil if you refuse to pray for any individual. I clarified that I don't believe it is willful malice. hot stuff, I know you have the best of intentions. It is evil to refuse to pray for any man, whether they desire it or not. I cannot mitigate that statement or water it down. It is a simple truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1278174553' post='2137381'] Saul, as a good Jew, probably asked for God's guidance. [/quote] But he would have been mad if he heard that Christians were praying for his conversion, right? He would have admonished Christians for praying for him, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1278174929' post='2137385'] But he would have been mad if he heard that Christians were praying for his conversion, right? He would have admonished Christians for praying for him, right? [/quote] I don't know! But that's a lot of what ifs. Hitchens has made his point really clear. BTW I was in a personal discussion with Penn Gillette (who is about as hard core hedonist and atheist as you can get) and he specifically asked me TO pray for him. And I'm happy to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1278174761' post='2137384'] I haven't used hyperboles, and I have never used ad hominems. I apologized for my lack of clarity, but I will not retract my statement that you are deceived by the Devil if you refuse to pray for any individual. I clarified that I don't believe it is willful malice. hot stuff, I know you have the best of intentions. It is evil to refuse to pray for any man, whether they desire it or not. I cannot mitigate that statement or water it down. It is a simple truth. [/quote] No you state opinion. Truth can be backed up by the Teachings of the Church. You have not (and can not) do that. It is a simple opinion. Some opinions are however simpler than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='Maria' date='03 July 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1278174738' post='2137382'] Hmmm... because, naturally, I'm trying to understand why you feel that praying for someone who explicitly does not want prayer violates his free will. Obviously it violates his wish, but that's not the same as violating his free will -- it doesn't force him to do something regardless of his choice (hence my idea that you might think prayer to be coercive). So what do you see praying for him as doing that is offensive? You have mentioned the idea of honouring/not violating his wishes a few times now, I think, so it might have something to do with that. Do you find the situation somewhat similar to entering and cleaning up the house of someone who has made it clear that he prefers to live like a slob? Or forcing one's companionship on a solitary grouch who hates being around people? That the violation is of a (perceived) right to order one's (spiritual) surroundings (so by prayer you would be violating Christopher Hitchen's right to insulate himself against God, or something)? [/quote] When did I say it was offensive? Everybody seems to be of the opinion that honoring his wishes is offensive/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) [quote]First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made [b]for all men[/b] --1Timothy 2:1[/quote] [quote]"Consider how Jesus Christ teaches us to be humble, by making us see that our virtue does not depend on our work alone but on grace from on high. [b]He commands each of the faithful who prays to do so universally, for the whole world.[/b] For he did not say "thy will be done in me or in us," but "on earth," the whole earth, so that error may be banished from it, truth take root in it, all vice be destroyed on it, virtue flourish on it, and earth no longer differ from heaven." (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Mt. 19, 5 PG 57, 280.) --Catechism of the Catholic Church #2825[/quote] Edited July 3, 2010 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1278176285' post='2137396'] I don't know! But that's a lot of what ifs. Hitchens has made his point really clear. [/quote] Just one "if". If you were a Christian during those times, would you pray for Saul against his wishes? Remember, his wishes clashed with God's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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