Praying For Christopher Hitchens

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1278164806' post='2137324']
hass Seriously, you bore me. I thought you had gotten over making posts to amuse yourself but contributed nothing. BTW lay off the "Church Scholar" thing. I've never touted it. What I do care for is the fact that I actually have studied and been given a degree in Theology.
[/quote]

I am contributing something. I commenting on the fact that you are being a patronizing ass towards Rexi. MT tried to point this out with charity and discretion and you didn't accecpt that. I thought that maybe if I was over the top then that would drive the point home. Obviously, you've just decided that your stunning acomplishment of obtaining a theology major entitles you to be as patronizing and obnoxious as you like to whatever twerp who dares not defer to your immense wisdom.

Get over yourself.

[Maria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1278176638' post='2137401']
When did I say it was offensive? Everybody seems to be of the opinion that honoring his wishes is offensive/
[/quote]
I'm sorry -- the first sentence of my second paragraph was a little unclear. The question was meant to ask you why you have difficulty praying for him. I.e., what is it about praying for Christopher Hitchens that is offensive (to you). I was not trying to say that your position is offensive to me. I was trying to understand your position.

I mean, I know that you have a problem with praying for Christopher Hitchens because he specifically does not want to be prayed for. Given that, I'm trying to understand in how you see praying for him as being a violation of his free will, and I came up with the analogy of praying for him as entering a slob's house to clean it up, despite the slob's clear desire to keep living in a messy house. Is it that kind of intrusion that you have a problem with?

[Winchester]

[img]http://portofinobelize.com/art/Tarponsm.jpg[/img]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1278176375' post='2137398']
No you state opinion. Truth can be backed up by the Teachings of the Church. You have not (and can not) do that.

It is a simple opinion. Some opinions are however simpler than others.
[/quote]

I haven't used many quotes (only one from Matthew) because quote wars are stupid. People can interpret them to mean whatever they want them to mean. If you are looking for quotes, though, Era posted a couple good ones.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I disagree with every post in this thread and nothing that anybody says will make me change my mind.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 July 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1278179828' post='2137429']
I disagree with every post in this thread and nothing that anybody says will make me change my mind.
[/quote]
I am not Herbert.

[Selah]

[quote]I disagree with every post in this thread and nothing that anybody says will make me change my mind. [/quote]

Modalism is lame.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 July 2010 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1278136848' post='2137286']
Forgive me for not making my meaning clear. Love and Prayer for ones neighbor whether friend or foe was a commandment Christians followed unto death. Now you purpose a new found loophole. A way out of praying for your brother who's soul is made in the image of the Divine Logos. Again If those who crucified our Blessed Lord "requested" He not pray for them. Should He not have prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?
[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1278177100' post='2137404']
Just one "if". If you were a Christian during those times, would you pray for Saul against his wishes? Remember, his wishes clashed with God's.
[/quote]

Again, I don't know if praying for him is against his wishes or not. As I mentioned, I have no problems praying for unbelievers and unbelievers especially who have said "sure go ahead and pray for me". I have no problems praying for enemies. But I don't buy the argument that because he doesn't believe in what I believe, he's my enemy.

[quote name='Hassan' date='03 July 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1278178057' post='2137412']
I am contributing something. I commenting on the fact that you are being a patronizing ass towards Rexi. MT tried to point this out with charity and discretion and you didn't accecpt that. I thought that maybe if I was over the top then that would drive the point home. Obviously, you've just decided that your stunning acomplishment of obtaining a theology major entitles you to be as patronizing and obnoxious as you like to whatever twerp who dares not defer to your immense wisdom.

Get over yourself.
[/quote]
Its bad enough that you're a troll, do you have to be so boring? Do something productive and search Phazzan. Now there's a troll I can respect.

[quote name='Maria' date='03 July 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1278179631' post='2137424']
I'm sorry -- the first sentence of my second paragraph was a little unclear. The question was meant to ask you why you have difficulty praying for him. I.e., what is it about praying for Christopher Hitchens that is offensive (to you). I was not trying to say that your position is offensive to me. I was trying to understand your position.

I mean, I know that you have a problem with praying for Christopher Hitchens because he specifically does not want to be prayed for. Given that, I'm trying to understand in how you see praying for him as being a violation of his free will, and I came up with the analogy of praying for him as entering a slob's house to clean it up, despite the slob's clear desire to keep living in a messy house. Is it that kind of intrusion that you have a problem with?
[/quote]

I don't find praying for anyone to be offensive. I think if folks are praying for Hitchens, that's fine. I have not told anyone NOT to pray for him or that its evil to do so. So here's my logic

A person can reject God
Because of the doctrine of Free Will, God will honor that. (The man is free to change his mind of course and God will accept that in infinite mercy)
That person has told me "do not pray for me, I do not want to ever accept God"
Why should I treat him less than God does?

Of course (as I've said several times) I will hope that he changes his mind. I know that God hopes he changes his mind as well!

I ask my friends permission to pray for them.


[quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1278179809' post='2137428']
I haven't used many quotes (only one from Matthew) because quote wars are stupid. People can interpret them to mean whatever they want them to mean. If you are looking for quotes, though, Era posted a couple good ones.
[/quote]

But you make such audacious statements that you can't possibly back up. [quote]To refuse to pray for men who hate the Church and therefore ask that you don't pray is to deny them grace that might save them, and is, in effect, to dam[color="#000000"]n[/color] them.
[/quote]
[quote]
I apologize for the vagueness of my statement... you have not damned every living man who is not a member of the Church. I should have said you damned every anti-theist who asked that we do not pray for him. [/quote]

[quote] It is evil to refuse to pray for any man, whether they desire it or not. I cannot mitigate that statement or water it down. [b]It is a simple truth[/b]. [/quote]

Not one of these statements is factual. yet you treat them like dogma. If you said "in my opinion, you're..." that would be one thing. But you don't.

So state it as opinion (which you have a right to) or state it as truth. But if you state it as truth, you better back it up with something relevant.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 07:46 AM' timestamp='1278164806' post='2137324']Good lord Golden, you too?

See this would help to read the whole thread. Because your argument has been addressed.

You folks don't seem to understand but you seem to be making the exact same arguments that folks make when they say. "How can a good God send anybody to hell? No God that I believe in would ever do something that horrible!!"

You have the right to ask to be prayed for. Christopher Hitchens has the same right by virtue of free will to ask not to be prayed for. I don't think its evil for anyone to say "I'm praying for you anyway" But I also think its not evil to honor the man's wishes.
[/quote]

okay fair enough. I had no intentions of reading the whole thread and didn't see it addressed through the first 4 threads. My only point is that I don't believe a wish is protected under free will. I wish many people would do many things, that doesn't mean they are obligated to fulfill that wish, otherwise that would be against the other's free will if they don't wish to fulfill it. The free will of both parties must be considered, not just one side. Sure he has the free will not to want anyone to pray for him. But I have the free will to wish to pray for him. If that was already addressed, then I apologize. I didn't see where, and I just read back through the whole thing (against my better judgment), and still don't see my particular argument addressed at all.

Forgive me for jumping in late to the game, I should have just left it alone, but I thought it was a pretty simple point that everyone here (not just you) was missing, and that is that a person is free to act, say, think how they wish. But a wish doesn't fall under this category as it requires another person to act in a certain way, and this act may or may not go against how this other person would freely choose if the wish had not been made.

This is probably a bad example as it may be a sticky point for many here, but for me personally if someone told me that they wanted to or were considering committing suicide, but told me to never tell anyone else or told me to not do anything about it, this would strongly go against my free will. I wouldn't be able to honor this request. It doesn't infringe on their free will, because they are free to still do as they wish commit suicide or not. But I am free to do as I wish to find them help.

Or in your case, not. And that is your free will, but if you were to choose to do something, it would not be infringing on free will of either party.


But as you say this has already been addressed, I'll just leave it at that and bow out now.

peace

Edited July 3, 2010 by goldenchild17

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Era Might' date='03 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1278176915' post='2137403']
"Consider how Jesus Christ teaches us to be humble, by making us see that our virtue does not depend on our work alone but on grace from on high.[b] He commands each of the faithful who prays to do so universally, for the whole world. [/b]For he did not say "thy will be done in me or in us," but "on earth," the whole earth, so that error may be banished from it, truth take root in it, all vice be destroyed on it, virtue flourish on it, and earth no longer differ from heaven." (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Mt. 19, 5 PG 57, 280.)

--Catechism of the Catholic Church #2825
[/quote]

This is an excellent point. I just read all 9 pages of this thread (good gracious) and I am pretty sure hot stuff has already stated (at least) a couple of times that he[b] does [/b]do this. From what I read it sounds to me like he has no problem with letting Hitchens fall under the umbrella of "all nonbelievers" but has a [i]personal struggle[/i] with praying for the guy specifically by name since the dude requested that people NOT pray for him. I don't really see a problem with letting him fall under that umbrella. Maybe that's just me, though...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]

So state it as opinion (which you have a right to) or state it as truth. But if you state it as truth, you better back it up with something relevant.
[/quote]

Yes by all means do so. Show us where the Church gives a loophole for praying for our fellow man. Where is the out? Why did chirstians before us have to die praying for their fellow man but you can have a cop out and not be your brothers keeper. His soul is not his own, he has no right to request you not pray for him. His soul is made in the image of God. Not praying for your fellow man for whatever reason dishonors God's image.

[Selah]

Guys. Ease up on hot stuff. He said he himself struggled personally with this. I don't see what the big deal is. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Oh, and before you tell me to read the entire thread, I did, numerous times, and since I am a member of this forum, I have every right to jump in and give my two cents.

That is all.

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='03 July 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1278189969' post='2137469']
okay fair enough. I had no intentions of reading the whole thread and didn't see it addressed through the first 4 threads. My only point is that I don't believe a wish is protected under free will. I wish many people would do many things, that doesn't mean they are obligated to fulfill that wish, otherwise that would be against the other's free will if they don't wish to fulfill it. The free will of both parties must be considered, not just one side. Sure he has the free will not to want anyone to pray for him. But I have the free will to wish to pray for him. If that was already addressed, then I apologize. I didn't see where.
[/quote]

No that wasn't addressed. What was addressed was the comparison between someone wanting to commit suicide and someone requesting that I don't pray for them.

I think the my free will vs your free will argument falls short for me like this: My free will can't impede yours. You desire that I don't give you an atomic wedgie (one which takes the waistband of your underwear and pulls it over your head) I have the free will to want to give you one. (I don't. this is hypothetical) I shouldn't do that because you deserve to decide if you want the waistband of your underwear around your head or not. I should respect that right even though it restrains my free will.

If your free will allows you to not receive what is bad for you (atomic wedgie) your free will should allow you to not receive what is good for you (prayer) and I think its ok to honor both.

the reason I got frustrated with you Golden is with the period in your life when you were seriously questioning the succession of popes. At one point you made the comment that you appreciated all our concerns but you didn't want to talk about it anymore. You wanted to talk about other things. TBH I had a huge amount of respect for the obvious thoughtfulness you put into that period in your life. And even though I absolutely disagreed with you and I wanted to keep on talking about popes, I had to respect your wishes.

so anyway, I always kind of put you into the camp that was big on free will.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1278191823' post='2137479']I think the my free will vs your free will argument falls short for me like this: My free will can't impede yours.[/quote]

agreed (which ironically is the whole point of my argument).


[quote]You desire that I don't give you an atomic snuggy (one which takes the waistband of your underwear and pulls it over your head) I have the free will to want to give you one. (I don't. this is hypothetical) I shouldn't do that because you deserve to decide if you want the waistband of your underwear around your head or not. I should respect that right even though it restrains my free will.

If your free will allows you to not receive what is bad for you (atomic snuggy) your free will should allow you to not receive what is good for you (prayer) and I think its ok to honor both. [/quote]

awesome example btw Again however, I don't see how a wish is equal to free will. As far as I know, free will only applies how to the individual acts, not how others should act. Just as much as I would not want an atomic wedgie (I've never heard of a snuggy as you describe it ) that is a personal wish, not an act of my free will.

Now you may (and I say may because I don't know the theologically correct answer) have a point if we were to be arguing about baptism. If someone were to get in an accident and were at the point of death, I may want to administer baptism (if I were the only one at the time able to do so), but if the dying person refused it, I'm not certain I could do so. Someone who knows the answer to this I would appreciate a correction if need be.

I think a person has free will in how they choose to act themselves, not in how they request others to act.


[quote]the reason I got frustrated with you Golden is with the period in your life when you were seriously questioning the succession of popes. At one point you made the comment that you appreciated all our concerns but you didn't want to talk about it anymore. You wanted to talk about other things. TBH I had a huge amount of respect for the obvious thoughtfulness you put into that period in your life. And even though I absolutely disagreed with you and I wanted to keep on talking about popes, I had to respect your wishes.

so anyway, I always kind of put you into the camp that was big on free will.[/quote]

1.) I am big on free will, as it is a basic concept of Catholicism. I think we are disagreeing on how it is applied. I don't believe it applies to how one wants others to act on their behalf, but only applies to how one acts themselves. Free will means that if I wanted, I could choose not to pray for myself or do anything to advance my salvation. Free will also means that a second person could choose to pray for me in the hopes that I would be saved, even if I didn't want them to do so.

2.) If I didn't (and don't) want to continue talking about something, it is my free will to drop out of a discussion. It would be your free will continue that discussion. No one is forcing me to stay in the conversation (whether it continues or not) and no one is forcing you or anyone else to stop the discussion. It could be rather rude or disrespectful on the part of one side or the other, but it doesn't infringe on either's free will. In that particular case, we had a mutual respect for the other's wishes, but I don't believe I was infringing on your free will to continue the discussion. You were (and are) more than able to continue talking about whatever (due solely on free will) I wouldn't take that away from you, despite my wish that you would stop.

Edited July 3, 2010 by goldenchild17