Praying For Christopher Hitchens

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1278106834' post='2137078']
Well except I still do so that doesn't work

Besides did Christopher Hitchens become my enemy?
[/quote]
Oh, so Christ wants us to [i]only[/i] pray for those who are our enemies.

Therefore, if you can only show that Christopher Hitchens or other atheists are not our enemies, that proves we need not pray for them, argument over.

Brilliant.


This debate has truly become a theatre of the absurd.

[Maria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1278185599' post='2137455']
I don't find praying for anyone to be offensive. I think if folks are praying for Hitchens, that's fine. I have not told anyone NOT to pray for him or that its evil to do so. So here's my logic

A person can reject God
Because of the doctrine of Free Will, God will honor that. (The man is free to change his mind of course and God will accept that in infinite mercy)
[b]That person has told me "do not pray for me, I do not want to ever accept God"
Why should I treat him less than God does?
[/b] (emphasis mine)
Of course (as I've said several times) I will hope that he changes his mind. I know that God hopes he changes his mind as well!

I ask my friends permission to pray for them.
[/quote]
What I don't understand is how praying for someone who says "do not pray for me, I do not want to ever accept God" violates that person's free will, thereby making the pray-er treat the person with less respect than God.

You agree that the prayer would still leave him free to ultimately reject God.
Therefore, it seems that you feel that doing something contrary to someone's wishes violates that person's free will.
If the above statement is true, then you seem to believe that free will involves not only the ability to choose or reject something, and not only the ability to act according to such a choice, but also the right to have others act according to one's wishes. (You will doubtless want to refine/limit that last statement.)

Now, you said that God honours our free will, and therefore you feel that you should do the same. But, while God honours our choice for Him or our rejection of Him, He doesn't exactly honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him. After all, He died for everyone regardless of whether they want it or are strongly opposed to it.


Also, like goldenchild, I think that respecting other people's wishes is distinct from the question of respecting their free will.

I.e., one of the main problems I have with your arguement/personal dilemma is that you keep referring to free will, and to me it seems to be an issue of honouring wishes, which I see as distinct from respecting free will.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Maria

[Selah]

[quote]When a 16 year old takes the position of "Well there's nothing I can teach you" then he's assuming he CAN teach me something. That is inappropriate and arrogant. and yes I called him a twerp because I am disappointed that i spent any time trying to calm folks down when a little 12 year old Thomas More showed up and annoyed the croutons out of most of the folks around this place. I've gently corrected Tyler in the past. I know the results. [/quote]

I...I love you.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Selah' date='03 July 2010 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1278212380' post='2137567']
I...I love you.
[/quote]

What a suitable response. We should all praise those who insult another member of the forum.

[Selah]

Erin, I see no insulting going on

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Selah' date='03 July 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1278213295' post='2137574']
Erin, I see no insulting going on
[/quote]

My mistake, being called "arrogant" and a "twerp" should inspire fuzzy feelings in all.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Selah' date='03 July 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1278213295' post='2137574']
Erin, I see no insulting going on
[/quote]

Yet that is exactly what "hot stuff" did to Rexi. Insulted his age, amongst other things.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 July 2010 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1278130007' post='2137243']
Anyone who is an enemy of the Catholic Church is also an enemy of each of her members.
Christopher Hitchens is an enemy of the Catholic Church.
Ergo, Christopher Hitchens is an enemy of each of the members of the Catholic Church.

[/quote]
I'm calling fallacy here.

You hate the religion of Muhammad for contradicting the truth of Christ, don't you?
Each Muslim embraces the religion of Muhammad.
Therefore, you hate each Muslim.

Is that correct?

Edited July 4, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 July 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1278179828' post='2137429']
I disagree with every post in this thread and nothing that anybody says will make me change my mind.
[/quote]
iawtp

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='03 July 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1278216512' post='2137589']
I'm calling fallacy here.

You hate the religion of Muhammad for contradicting the truth of Christ, don't you?
Each Muslim embraces the religion of Muhammad.
Therefore, you hate each Muslim.

Is that correct?
[/quote]

Your syllogism doesn't correspond to mine. In order to attack my argument, you either need to attack the major premise, namely that "Anyone who is an enemy of the Catholic Church is also an enemy of each of her members" or the minor premise, that "Christopher Hitchens is an enemy of the Catholic Church."

Hating someone does not correspond to being that person's enemy. A better comparison would have been one like the following:

Anyone who is an enemy of the United States armed forces is an enemy of each individual member thereof.
Adolf Hitler is an enemy of the United States armed forces.
Ergo, Adolf Hitler is an enemy of each individual member of the United States armed forces.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Resurrexi

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Maria' date='03 July 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1278211524' post='2137565']
What I don't understand is how praying for someone who says "do not pray for me, I do not want to ever accept God" violates that person's free will, thereby making the pray-er treat the person with less respect than God.

You agree that the prayer would still leave him free to ultimately reject God.
Therefore, it seems that you feel that doing something contrary to someone's wishes violates that person's free will.
If the above statement is true, then you seem to believe that free will involves not only the ability to choose or reject something, and not only the ability to act according to such a choice, but also the right to have others act according to one's wishes. (You will doubtless want to refine/limit that last statement.)

Now, you said that God honours our free will, and therefore you feel that you should do the same. But, while God honours our choice for Him or our rejection of Him, He doesn't exactly honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him. [b]After all, He died for everyone regardless of whether they want it or are strongly opposed to it.[/b]


Also, like goldenchild, I think that respecting other people's wishes is distinct from the question of respecting their free will.

I.e., one of the main problems I have with your arguement/personal dilemma is that you keep referring to free will, and to me it seems to be an issue of honouring wishes, which I see as distinct from respecting free will.
[/quote]


The bolded is a very good point, and reminds me of [url="http://jeffvoegtlin.wordpress.com/2006/11/21/dont-leave-it-on-the-desk-2/"]this story[/url]. I don't know where it originates or is based on so that link will have to do. This part in particular pertains to our thread I think:

[quote]When the professor asked, “Scott do you want a donut?”

Scott’s reply was, “Well, can I do my own pushups?”

Dr. Christianson said, “No, Steve has to do them.”

Then Scott said, “Well, I don’t want one then.”

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, “Steve, would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn’t want?

With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups.

Scott said, “HEY! I said I didn’t want one!”

Dr. Christianson said, “Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don’t want it."[/quote]

God died for us all of us (thanks for bringing it up). He died for all of us, whether we wanted Him to or not. This does not deny our free will. His dying for us makes grace available to us. It is up to our free will whether we want to accept or deny this grace.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 July 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1278217513' post='2137595']
Anyone who is an enemy of the United States armed forces is an enemy of each individual member thereof.
Adolf Hitler is an enemy of the United States armed forces.
Ergo, Adolf Hitler is an enemy of each individual member of the United States armed forces.
[/quote]
Also fallacious. Hitler loved America and Americans in general. His private train car was named "[i]Amerika[/i]" (I'll let you GoogleTranslate that one yourself.) He may have disliked it when American soldiers were firing at his troops, but in many ways he wished to emulate and be on good terms with a country he saw as having strong Anglo-Saxon, Aryan roots and good eugenics programmes. One doesn't wish to emulate his enemies, does he?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='03 July 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1278198818' post='2137501']
Oh, so Christ wants us to [i]only[/i] pray for those who are our enemies.

Therefore, if you can only show that Christopher Hitchens or other atheists are not our enemies, that proves we need not pray for them, argument over.

Brilliant.


This debate has truly become a theatre of the absurd.
[/quote]

apparently you miss me when you put me on ignore.

Miss me less

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='03 July 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1278218323' post='2137597']
Also fallacious. Hitler loved America and Americans in general. His private train car was named "[i]Amerika[/i]" (I'll let you GoogleTranslate that one yourself.)[/quote]

I guess Hitler was very good at loving his enemies, wasn't he?

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='03 July 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1278218323' post='2137597']
He may have disliked it when American soldiers were firing at his troops, but in many ways he wished to emulate and be on good terms with a country he saw as having strong Anglo-Saxon, Aryan roots and good eugenics programmes. One doesn't wish to emulate his enemies, does he?
[/quote]

I have a few personal enemies whom I would like to emulate in some aspects. For example, an acquaintance (and enemy) of mine is a rabid atheist who hates religion. He also happens to be very brilliant, especially in math and the sciences. Although I am his enemy, I would have no problem imitating insofar as is intellectual prowess is concerned.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Jaime]

Well I'd respond more but sir poopsalot brought Hitler into the discussion. Godwin's law has been invoked.


Nice job Rex