Winchester Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278111267' post='2137127'] I think this is a pretty decent debate, actually. [/quote] You [i]would[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='02 July 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1278111340' post='2137128'] You [i]would[/i]. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [img]http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/05/Canada_iPod_Settlement.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278111267' post='2137127'] I think this is a pretty decent debate, actually. [/quote] me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1278111676' post='2137135'] me too! [/quote] Harlot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 Fine. Debate. I'll be over here, talking to the voices in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 Well, I don't do this often, but I must say...this thread reeks of arrogance. Jai[i][/i]me, while I understand your position, I find your argument specious. If I know a man who sits in front of me, douses himself in gasoline, lights a match, and then says 'do NOT put me out' as he proceeds to set himself afire, I am not respecting his personal freedom by allowing him to sit there and roast himself to death. That is ridiculous. To refuse to pray for someone who needs the prayer desperately, despite their protestations to the contrary, is essentially the same thing. I sit and watch as they consign themselves to Hellfire while I do nothing. The fact is, prayer in no way impairs the free exercise of personal will. No matter what I pray, if the person does not choose to cooperate with the graces of God, then they condemn themselves, and that is their choice. My prayer in no way impedes their free will. To agree not to pray for any person is to concede that they are beyond God's grace. I simply do not believe that any person is beyond the salvation of God, no matter what they say. Mr. Hitchens can believe whatever he wants to, but I refuse to presume what the final state of his soul will be at the moment of his death. Aside from that, I think your condescension to Rex is unfortunate. If you want him to respect you as a church scholar and as an elder, then exhibit the leadership of an elder. Don't throw his age in his face because it is unwarranted. His age is not germane to the discussion. All this 'kiddo' and 'sport' stuff is just rude. You want his respect? Act the part and earn it. Disagree with his argument and leave the pejoratives to the playground. Rex, same goes for you. Behave in the way in which you would want to be treated. Be mindful of your tone. Jai[i][/i]me is a church scholar. Treat him as such. No matter whether I agree or disagree with someone's opinions, I try to give them the civility and charity due to one of my brethren. It's unfortunate to me that I feel compelled even to speak about this on a topic about praying for a man with cancer. Absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 I very much agree with you, Marie. And Hassan, the reason why Rexi is sometimes treated the way he is, is quite simply because at times he does come across as if he knows it all. Yes, he knows very much about church history and the laws and catechism, but there are many here who do know a great deal more than he does. It would behoove him greatly to show respect to those who do have more knowledge of such things and experience. There are people here who know more than he does. He just needs to deal with it. Hell, I do. I get yelled at like 3 times a day on Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Selah' date='02 July 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1278114611' post='2137153'] I very much agree with you, Marie. And Hassan, the reason why Rexi is sometimes treated the way he is, is quite simply because at times he does come across as if he knows it all. Yes, he knows very much about church history and the laws and catechism, but there are many here who do know a great deal more than he does. It would behoove him greatly to show respect to those who do have more knowledge of such things and experience. There are people here who know more than he does. He just needs to deal with it. Hell, I do. I get yelled at like 3 times a day on Phatmass. [/quote] SHADDAP HIPPIE!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote]SHADDAP HIPPIE!!!! [/quote] "Barbarism is the natural state of man" - Conan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1278110109' post='2137123'] When did I say that? [/quote] Perhaps indirectly, when you seemed to argue in favor of not praying for Christopher Hitchens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='Marie-Therese' date='02 July 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1278114089' post='2137147'] Well, I don't do this often, but I must say...this thread reeks of arrogance. hot stuff, while I understand your position, I find your argument specious. If I know a man who sits in front of me, douses himself in gasoline, lights a match, and then says 'do NOT put me out' as he proceeds to set himself afire, I am not respecting his personal freedom by allowing him to sit there and roast himself to death. That is ridiculous. To refuse to pray for someone who needs the prayer desperately, despite their protestations to the contrary, is essentially the same thing. I sit and watch as they consign themselves to Hellfire while I do nothing. The fact is, prayer in no way impairs the free exercise of personal will. No matter what I pray, if the person does not choose to cooperate with the graces of God, then they condemn themselves, and that is their choice. My prayer in no way impedes their free will. To agree not to pray for any person is to concede that they are beyond God's grace. I simply do not believe that any person is beyond the salvation of God, no matter what they say. Mr. Hitchens can believe whatever he wants to, but I refuse to presume what the final state of his soul will be at the moment of his death. Aside from that, I think your condescension to Rex is unfortunate. If you want him to respect you as a church scholar and as an elder, then exhibit the leadership of an elder. Don't throw his age in his face because it is unwarranted. His age is not germane to the discussion. All this 'kiddo' and 'sport' stuff is just rude. You want his respect? Act the part and earn it. Disagree with his argument and leave the pejoratives to the playground. Rex, same goes for you. Behave in the way in which you would want to be treated. Be mindful of your tone. hot stuff is a church scholar. Treat him as such. No matter whether I agree or disagree with someone's opinions, I try to give them the civility and charity due to one of my brethren. It's unfortunate to me that I feel compelled even to speak about this on a topic about praying for a man with cancer. Absurd. [/quote] Where is the arrogance? I've never suggested that you or anybody else can't pray for the guy. I've never put down anybody's desire to pray for Hitchens (not that the same courtesy has been returned) I said that I struggled with the idea of praying for a man who has explicitly asked not to be prayed for. That is all I've said on the matter. And quite frankly there is nothing I've said that warrants your criticism. As far as your example of a man committing suicide, you're comparing apples to salmon. The Church acknowledges that a person committing suicide is most likely not a rational state of mind. The Church does not say the same for someone who actively rejects God's grace. As far as Rexi goes, his statement of "Well there is nothing I can teach you then" is rude and disrespectful. One, I'm not looking to be taught anything, I'm sharing an issue I've struggled with. B) The likelihood that Rex has anything to teach me is about as promising as Winchester not being adorable at any given moment. The only thing that I found annoying about it is the fact that I've ever expended any energy defending the twerp when he first came on the board as a 12 year old. Nihil and I were having a perfectly calm and rational discussion. there was no arrogance. And trust me Marie, I know when I'm being arrogant on a thread! This was one of the few discussions where I wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 July 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1278116005' post='2137163'] Perhaps indirectly, when you seemed to argue in favor of not praying for Christopher Hitchens. [/quote] I'm saying that if someone explicitly asks not to be prayed for, there can be an argument made to respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 But hot stuff, isn't it important to pray for the souls of the unsaved and those who need Christ? I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1278127145' post='2137227'] I'm saying that if someone explicitly asks not to be prayed for, there can be an argument made to respect that. [/quote] Not if we should obey God rather than man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts