Praying For Christopher Hitchens

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 July 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1278136183' post='2137283']
and the horse you rode in on
[/quote]

why are they riding my horse?

[goldenchild17]

Instead of reading through everything (stopped after pg. 4) and addressing everyone, I'm just going to flippantly add my random thought. Bad debate form I know, but its open mic, so I'm letting it slide

Free will is granted by God to everyone. This free will allows people of all different persuasions to act as they wish, no matter how stupid it might be. I could very well be wrong on this, but I don't think that free will includes granting every person's wish, but only applies to the acts they commit and things they say and think themselves. I don't think it applies to how they think other's should act.

If someone is in a burning building, and is just sitting there making no effort to get out, and doesn't want me to call a Fire Dept. or make an effort to put it out myself, then I see no reason to grant their wish. If they intend to use their free will to sit in that fire and let it consume them, then so be it. But my free will tells me to do something about it. Their act is their free will, but their wish is of no consequence to me, unless it is in accord with my free will as well. They can sit their and give up, and I can attempt to save them (either directly or indirectly). Both of our free wills remain intact, despite one of us not achieving the desirable affect of our free will.


Someone who asks me not to pray for them is certainly entitled to their decision to give up and to defiantly refuse any grace from God. But them asking me not to pray for them infringes on my free will to pray for them with the hope that they change their mind. They may not wish to be saved, that is their free will. My free will entitles me to pray for them.

So I don't see how someone is entitled to their wishes for how another acts in their behalf, as this may (and in this case in particular, does or should) infringe on the free will of others.

[Jesus_lol]

just to carry some reasoning a little farther, out of curiousities sake, how do you guys feel about possibly being baptized as a Mormon [i]in absentia[/i]?

They have done this without any warning to the parties involved(especially as they are often dead at the time), and often against their wishes, including many Jews dead from the holocaust being baptized in absentia as Mormons.

[goldenchild17]

I'm sure there's a right answer to that, and this may not be it, but as far as I'm concerned their baptism for the dead is nothing but a waste of water. Even according to their holy books (as far as I know) their isn't much to support the practice:

[b]Alma 34:35-36[/b] "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."


So what they want to do in the privacy of their home or temple is up to them. By the time any Mormon would be able to consider this option I would hope to be in heaven praying for their souls and may the better choice win.

Going back to the example in the last post, perhaps someone (the Mormon) sees what they think is a person in a burning building. But in reality, there is nobody in any particular danger in the burning building, just their perception makes it seem as though there is. So they rush into the building to try and save that alleged person, while the real person is perfectly safe. The safe person wills that the other doesn't go into the burning building, because there is no real need. However the other person wills to save the person in danger (despite the fact that there is no one in danger), so they rush inside pointlessly and even put themselves in danger in the process (perhaps like a Mormon might do by resorting to evil means to try and rescue other people from a fictitious evil - non-mormonism.

Edited July 3, 2010 by goldenchild17

[Jaime]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1278135152' post='2137278']
Anyone who is an anti-theist is an enemy of the Church. Spiritual violence is much more evil and deadly than physical violence.
[/quote]

And how do you come up with that? If you're right, then great. But I think you're just stating what you want to be true and stating it like its fact. Enemy is a strong term. I don't deem everyone who disagrees with me an enemy. There is no rap played in my house, I don't care for it. Does that make me an enemy of rap?

[quote name='Maria' date='03 July 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1278135682' post='2137279']
hot stuff, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a key element to your position the idea that prayer can have a coercive effect on those prayed for?

If you saw prayer as being efficacious in a way that is not coercive, would you still find it problematical? True, you wouldn't be following his wishes, but you wouldn't in any sense be violating his free will, and it seems that that potential violation is your chief objection.

What if your prayers would give grace space to operate without in any sense forcing him? I think that's closer to the vision of prayer that many of us have, which would definitely make it more difficult for us to accept your argument.
[/quote]

No I do not see prayer as coercive at all. I see free will as the first and greatest gift given to humanity. I don't believe I have the right to impede anyone's free will

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 July 2010 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1278136848' post='2137286']
Forgive me for not making my meaning clear. Love and Prayer for ones neighbor whether friend or foe was a commandment Christians followed unto death. Now you purpose a new found loophole. A way out of praying for your brother who's soul is made in the image of the Divine Logos. Again If those who crucified our Blessed Lord "requested" He not pray for them. Should He not have prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?
[/quote]

What loophole? Why are you trying to paint me as the bad guy here? If a person does not want to be with God, they have that choice!

[quote name='Hassan' date='03 July 2010 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1278137498' post='2137288']
Ah, now I think I understand your very reasonable and humble point


You are a middle age man who has vouchsafed his position as a wise and learned theological thinker by being named a "Church Scholar" on a website called phatmass. Your age and exaulted, nay glorious and infinitly admirable, achievemt of being named a Church Scholar on phatmass entitles you to a certain ammout of respect. You were merely attempting to go about your God given duty of imparting your vast and pratically infallible theological learning on others when this snott nosed twerp had the arrogance to think that he could teach you, the learned and glorious hot stuff, something about Catholicism. Naturally, you couldn't stand for that. For the humility and modesty with which you have gone about correcting this unlearned twerp, you will indeed be praised by my children and my children's children.


ALL HAIL THE GLORIOUS hot stuff! GOD'S CURSE BE UPON THOSE SO CONSUMED WITH PRIDE THAT THEY DELUDE THEMSELVES ONTO THINKING THAT THEY MIGHT ADD ONE KERNAL OF KNOWLEDGE TO HIS MOST VAST AND VENERABLE KNOWLEDGE!!! MAY THE VENERATON OF HIS KNOWLEDGE BE ETERNAL.

A CURSE UPON THE WICKED AND PROUD REXI! MAY HE BE REMEMBERED WITH DISDAIN FOR ETERNITY! SHUN THE VILE AND HAUGHTY FOOL WHO BELIEVED HE MIGHT TEACH THE GLORIOUS hot stuff ONE SINGLE THING. MAY REXI THE ARROGANT BE ANATHEMA!!!!!!
[/quote]

hass Seriously, you bore me. I thought you had gotten over making posts to amuse yourself but contributed nothing. BTW lay off the "Church Scholar" thing. I've never touted it. What I do care for is the fact that I actually have studied and been given a degree in Theology.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='03 July 2010 - 03:45 AM' timestamp='1278143111' post='2137302']
Instead of reading through everything (stopped after pg. 4) and addressing everyone, I'm just going to flippantly add my random thought. Bad debate form I know, but its open mic, so I'm letting it slide

Free will is granted by God to everyone. This free will allows people of all different persuasions to act as they wish, no matter how stupid it might be. I could very well be wrong on this, but I don't think that free will includes granting every person's wish, but only applies to the acts they commit and things they say and think themselves. I don't think it applies to how they think other's should act.

If someone is in a burning building, and is just sitting there making no effort to get out, and doesn't want me to call a Fire Dept. or make an effort to put it out myself, then I see no reason to grant their wish. If they intend to use their free will to sit in that fire and let it consume them, then so be it. But my free will tells me to do something about it. Their act is their free will, but their wish is of no consequence to me, unless it is in accord with my free will as well. They can sit their and give up, and I can attempt to save them (either directly or indirectly). Both of our free wills remain intact, despite one of us not achieving the desirable affect of our free will.


Someone who asks me not to pray for them is certainly entitled to their decision to give up and to defiantly refuse any grace from God. But them asking me not to pray for them infringes on my free will to pray for them with the hope that they change their mind. They may not wish to be saved, that is their free will. My free will entitles me to pray for them.

So I don't see how someone is entitled to their wishes for how another acts in their behalf, as this may (and in this case in particular, does or should) infringe on the free will of others.
[/quote]

Good lord Golden, you too?

See this would help to read the whole thread. Because your argument has been addressed.

You folks don't seem to understand but you seem to be making the exact same arguments that folks make when they say. "How can a good God send anybody to hell? No God that I believe in would ever do something that horrible!!"

You have the right to ask to be prayed for. Christopher Hitchens has the same right by virtue of free will to ask not to be prayed for. I don't think its evil for anyone to say "I'm praying for you anyway" But I also think its not evil to honor the man's wishes.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1278164806' post='2137324']
And how do you come up with that? If you're right, then great. But I think you're just stating what you want to be true and stating it like its fact. Enemy is a strong term. I don't deem everyone who disagrees with me an enemy. There is no rap played in my house, I don't care for it. Does that make me an enemy of rap?
[/quote]

Your analogy, as I'm sure you know, is no analogy at all. anti-theists don't merely ignore religion, they militantly attack it. Do you militantly attack rap? If so, then yes, of course you are an enemy of rap.

Would you rather me quote the Bible or any Saint who ever lived to prove to you that spiritual violence is worse? Quite honestly I don't see how any Catholic could [i]not[/i] know that spiritual violence far exceeds physical violence in deadliness.

Matthew 10:28
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill thesoul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

[quote]
Good lord Golden, you too?
[/quote]
maybe it's because your stance has no place in Catholic tradition


[quote]
You have the right to ask to be prayed for. Christopher Hitchens has the same right by virtue of free will to ask not to be prayed for. I don't think its evil for anyone to say "I'm praying for you anyway" But I also think its not evil to honor the man's wishes.
[/quote]

Christopher Hitchens does not have the right to be free of God's grace, at least not while on this earth. He may lack salvific grace, but actual grace will be given him until the day he dies. If you love your brother, hot stuff, you will pray for him. If not you are being deceived by the Devil.

God Bless,
Jonathan

[HisChildForever]

Hassan, I get what you are saying, but just...stop. You made your point earlier, no need to harp on it with capital letters and ridicule.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='03 July 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1278138827' post='2137297']
I'm older than you and, in my own estimation, far wiser. It is inappropiate and arrogant of you to try to correct me in this way. Take your spelling sophistry elsewhere please.
[/quote]
You're twelve.

[Winchester]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1278164806' post='2137324']
No I do not see prayer as coercive at all. I see free will as the first and greatest gift given to humanity. I don't believe I have the right to impede anyone's free will
[/quote]
It is permissible to impede free will, given the proper circumstances.

[Jaime]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 July 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1278169635' post='2137340']
Your analogy, as I'm sure you know, is no analogy at all. anti-theists don't merely ignore religion, they militantly attack it. Do you militantly attack rap? If so, then yes, of course you are an enemy of rap.

Would you rather me quote the Bible or any Saint who ever lived to prove to you that spiritual violence is worse? Quite honestly I don't see how any Catholic could [i]not[/i] know that spiritual violence far exceeds physical violence in deadliness.

Matthew 10:28
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill thesoul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.


maybe it's because your stance has no place in Catholic tradition




Christopher Hitchens does not have the right to be free of God's grace, at least not while on this earth. He may lack salvific grace, but actual grace will be given him until the day he dies. If you love your brother, hot stuff, you will pray for him. If not you are being deceived by the Devil.

God Bless,
Jonathan
[/quote]

If my stance is out of Catholic Tradition Jonathon, then please quote Catholic Tradition instead of offering conjecture. And as a point, your argument doesn't match up with Catholic faith at all

[quote][b]2005 [/b]Since it belongs to the supernatural order, [i]e[/i] [b]grace [/b][i][b]escapes our experienc[/b][b]e [/b][/i]and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. [/quote]

[quote][b]1993 [/b]Justification establishes [i]cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom[/i]. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since [b]he could reject it[/b]; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight. [/quote]

And as far as my example goes, fine let's make it more viceral. I can't stand auto-tune music. I'm absolutely militant about it and I will mock anyone at my house who is a fan of it. Does this make me Justin Bieber's enemy?

[HisChildForever]

I think we just need to take a step back and wonder what God would do - or what God is constantly doing - in a case like this. Even if a person is a staunch atheist, God still loves that person and desires for him to have a change of heart; if God desires this, surely God increases His love for that person so that the person will have a harder time fighting Him. Is God acting against free will? No. He is trying to sway the person towards Him, unless the person is so far gone he has hardened his heart to God. Of course we will never know if a man has a hardened heart, and therefore we should always pray - whether they like it or not. God would want us to pray.

Edited July 3, 2010 by HisChildForever

[Jaime]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 July 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1278171875' post='2137350']
I think we just need to take a step back and wonder what God would do - or what God is constantly doing - in a case like this. Even if a person is a staunch atheist, God still loves that person and desires for him to have a change of heart; if God desires this, surely God increases His love for that person so that the person will have a harder time fighting Him. Is God acting against free will? No. He is trying to sway the person towards Him, until the person is so far gone he has hardened his heart to God. Of course we will never know if a man has a hardened heart, and therefore we should always pray - whether they like it or not. God would want us to pray.
[/quote]

I agree with you that we should do what God would do. Do you think God ignores Hitchens desire for God to not help him or do you think he honors that?

The act of salvation begins with God. The act of rejection begins with man.

Again, I'm not stating that I have the end all argument on this. But I think it goes deeper than what others on the board prefer.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I just read page one, then skipped ahead to page seven. Is this squabble still the topic?

[quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1278092778' post='2136958']
Well there is a little matter of free will to contend with. I pray for non believers all the time and I do it in a general sense with my rosary. But if someone (and this is rare) tells me "Please do not pray for me" I don't feel that I have the right to violate that person's free will. God gave them that. I struggle with the idea that my praying for someone who has asked me not to might infringe on their free will.

I figure if God takes free will so seriously that I shouldn't treat it lightly.
[/quote]

[quote name='Socrates' date='02 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1278097946' post='2136992']
How is anyone's free will being violated if you pray for them?

The person doesn't have to know you're praying for him.
Forcing an atheist to "convert" at gunpoint would be violating his free will, but praying violates no one's free will.
By praying for someone you are freely imploring God to freely bestow His graces upon someone who remains free to accept or reject those graces.

I'm sure many who were converted by the prayers of others did not want those prayers initially.

We're not obligated to do whatever anyone else tells us to do anyway.
Praying for a person who's said he doesn't want prayers is no more wrong than rescuing a person trapped at the bottom of a well who says he doesn't want to be rescued, but to stray there and starve.


It seems the whole concept of "free will" is abused quite a bit nowadays, used as a reason for everything from not praying for others to insisting that abortion must remain legal.
[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 July 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1278172167' post='2137354']
I just read page one, then skipped ahead to page seven. Is this squabble still the topic?






[/quote]

The squabble is that I struggle with the notion of praying for someone who has explicitly asked me not to pray for them. And according to members of Phatmass, I am the pawn of the devil

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='03 July 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1278171854' post='2137349']
And as far as my example goes, fine let's make it more viceral. I can't stand auto-tune music. I'm absolutely militant about it and I will mock anyone at my house who is a fan of it. Does this make me Justin Bieber's enemy?
[/quote]

I'm not laughing at you, I promise... I just think this example is funny.

It makes you the enemy of Justin Bieber's music.

[quote][b]1993 [/b]Justification establishes [i]cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom[/i].On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word ofGod, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charitywith the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves hisassent: [b]When God touches man's heart through the illumination of theHoly Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving thatinspiration, since [/b][b][b]he could reject it[/b][/b]; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.[/quote]

Yes, of course he can reject God's grace; however, even the very fact that he is alive is grace. The food he eats is grace, the air he breathes is grace... he is even offered a very spiritual type of grace. Hitchens is offered the grace of conversion every day, and the name for this type of grace is [i]actual[/i] grace. That is the type of grace I referred to when I said Hitchens could not be free of grace on this earth... yes he can still reject it. Like Pharaoh before him this grace may harden is heart... but it is there.


hot stuff, to refuse to pray for enemies of the Church is the work of the Devil. I know it is not willful cooperation in evil on your part, but it is evil to adamantly beaver dam every living man who is not a member of the Church, and that is what you have done.