Vigilante Justice

[Ed Normile]

The term used her was vigilante justice which basically means lawlessness.
I had to cut and paste this from the Legal Dictionary as after three attempts the link would not work.

[b][size="3"]vigilante[/size][/b] n. someone who takes the law into his/her own hands by trying and/or punishing another person without any legal authority. In the 1800s groups of vigilantes dispensed "frontier justice" by holding trials of accused horse-thieves, rustlers and shooters, and then promptly hanging the accused if "convicted." A mother who shoots the alleged molester of her child is a vigilante.

ed

Edited July 9, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Socrates' date='09 July 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1278699822' post='2139972']
I think in [i]The Dark Knight[/i], Batman is shown as walking the line between hero and anti-hero, rather than always being a paragon of morality.[/quote]
In modern society, nobody is seen as a paragon of morality. Who wants a paragon of morality? A paragon is like, a [i]model [/i]of [i]behavior[/i], man. A [i]model [/i]implies that totally ungroovy word "ought," and applies it to our personal conduct. Total buzzkill, man. That's not acceptable for modern man. We each get to live in whatever way[i] feels[/i] best, you reach?


[quote]A reviewer noted how in [i]The Dark Knight[/i], whenever Batman "tortures" a bad guy to get information (such as the Joker and Maroni), it never leads to success on his part. After being beaten, the Joker gives Batman false information, and Rachael is killed while Harvey Dent is disfigured and ultimately corrupted.
In the interrogation scene (which incidentally Chris Nolan has said is his favorite), Batman is shown as a man losing control, while his rough methods prove frustratingly ineffective against the Joker, who takes masochistic delight in his beatings, and gleefully predicts that he will make Batman "break his one rule" (kill him).[/quote]
Do you really think that is the message, the [i]value[/i], that Joe Average is taking away from this movie?


[quote]That said, I honestly don't think it's necessarily wrong to rough up or frighten murderous criminals or terrorists to help save lives, much as that is an unpopular opinion on here.[/quote]
What is the difference between "roughing up/causing discomfort/instilling fear" and attempting to coerce the will? If you ain't convincing through logic, you're coercing through force. Seems simple. I like simple. God is simple.


[quote]There's something wrong with a line of thought that places a higher premium on the comfort of murderers than on innocent lives. I think it's because much of our society essentially worships comfort anyway. A lot of people who are full of self-righteous horror at terrorists being caused discomfort or fear, see little horror in the murder of millions of the innocent unborn (or at best view the two as equivalent evils).[/quote]
There's something wrong with a line of thought that places a higher premium on physical benefits than moral conduct.


[quote]And incidentally, Stern, wouldn't [i]all[/i] justice be vigilante justice in your anarchist utopia?
(You might want to check out Frank Miller's classic 80s Batman work - it had some anarchist undertones.)
[/quote]
I haven't got an anarchist utopia. Never said such a thing would or could exist. Justice is every man rendering to each his due. Its pure form comes from every man rendering to each his due. True and pure justice doesn't require violence. Unfortunately, pure justice cannot be wrought through violence by sinful man. The best we can manage to do is to restore, physically and in part, the physical order that men have already messed up through [i]in[/i]justice. God is the only one who can properly judge what is "due" in recompense for a sin. Rational men can pretty fairly judge if a person is a threat to other people, or that a material thing that has been unjustly taken should be returned. Irrational men think that an artificial violent monopoly on certain types of violence should be given to a select group of average men, [i]by [/i]average men, and believe that the result will usually be "justice," as though such men would be more wise, holy and virtuous than Joe Average, and have some physical incentive to be more just than Joe Average. Irrational men think the wrath of men works the justice of God.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 10, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 July 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1278711885' post='2140123']
All I know is that I'm smart enough not to try to arrest Sternhauser.
[/quote]

I'm a pussycat.

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1278723498' post='2140233']
I haven't got an anarchist utopia. Never said such a thing would or could exist. [/quote]
Indeed.
[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 1988 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1278723498' post='2140233']
We could have an anarchist utopia, if you butthats would shut up and listen to me.[/quote]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 July 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1278725068' post='2140274']
Indeed.

[/quote]

You were right about my having an axe to grind. Many axes, as a matter of fact. Nothing worse than a dull axe. It doesn't get anything done. Axes need to be sharpened.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 10, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Winchester]

Too sharp an axe is a problem. Dull axes work great.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 July 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1278731747' post='2140367']
Too sharp an axe is a problem. Dull axes work great.
[/quote]

in fact the best splitting axes are dull.

so a truly dull man is what is needed to split society apart into anarchy. cant think of any who fit the description though...

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1278725675' post='2140285']
You were right about my having an axe to grind. Many axes, as a matter of fact. Nothing worse than a dull axe. It doesn't get anything done. Axes need to be sharpened.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I perfer a sword.


[img]http://www.vikingwholesale.com/catalog/images/C-900S_SWORD.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

I prefer a Specter gunship.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 July 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1278731747' post='2140367']
Too sharp an axe is a problem. Dull axes work great.
[/quote]

A dull axe is a maul.


~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1278731969' post='2140375']
A dull axe is a maul.


~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Wrong again. I carry a maul on occasion. I more often choose a pickhead axe. Both are pretty dull. A dull axe is a dull axe. A maul has a much wider head, with a larger striking surface on the side opposite the blade.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Winchester

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='09 July 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1278731902' post='2140371']
I perfer a sword.


[img]http://www.vikingwholesale.com/catalog/images/C-900S_SWORD.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Double-edged. Good call.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 July 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1278732083' post='2140380']
Wrong again.
[/quote]

All right, it's a really sharp sledgehammer. : )

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1278732191' post='2140382']
All right, it's a really sharp sledgehammer. : )

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Well played.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='09 July 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1278732231' post='2140383']
Well played.
[/quote]

Thank you.

~Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

Throwing axes are best a bit dull. Too sharp, and they slip out of the target.

[Nihil Obstat]

This thread is so full of win...

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 July 2010 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1278732099' post='2140381']
Double-edged. Good call.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Only kind of sword to use.

Samurai swords are sub par....

[Nihil Obstat]

I like the concept of hand and a half swords.
[img]http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/coldsteel/images/88hnh.jpg[/img]

Also those little teeny Chinese swords, but just for looks.
[img]http://www.shoppersdreamwarehouse.com/Collectibles/Far_East_Items/31236.jpg[/img]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 July 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1278723498' post='2140233']
In modern society, nobody is seen as a paragon of morality. Who wants a paragon of morality? A paragon is like, a [i]model [/i]of [i]behavior[/i], man. A [i]model [/i]implies that totally ungroovy word "ought," and applies it to our personal conduct. Total buzzkill, man. That's not acceptable for modern man. We each get to live in whatever way[i] feels[/i] best, you reach?[/quote]
Like, far-out, man.



[quote]Do you really think that is the message, the [i]value[/i], that Joe Average is taking away from this movie?
[/quote]
I don't know what value Joe Average is taking away from the movie. Ask Joe Average. Though if I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's something along the lines of, "Gee, where can I get me a bat-pod?"

Personally, I found [i]The Dark Knight[/i] intelligent as well as entertaining, but that's just me.
Though, now I'm forced to agree the film would be vastly improved if Batman had instead shared a chocolate milkshake or something with the Joker, and non-coercively discussed their differences.

Obviously, the Joker, like most murderous maniacs, simply needed more hugs and warm-fuzzies.

[quote]What is the difference between "roughing up/causing discomfort/instilling fear" and attempting to coerce the will? If you ain't convincing through logic, you're coercing through force. Seems simple. I like simple. God is simple.



There's something wrong with a line of thought that places a higher premium on physical benefits than moral conduct.

[/quote]
Obviously, I don't share your anarchist ideology which regards "coercion of the will" as the ultimate evil.
I suppose miscreants should be left free to exercise their will to murder, rape, rob, and commit mayhem all they like, rather than "coerce" their precious little wills, or be "mean" to them.
Innocent human lives be dam[font="Arial"]ne[/font]d.

[quote]I haven't got an anarchist utopia. Never said such a thing would or could exist. Justice is every man rendering to each his due. Its pure form comes from every man rendering to each his due. True and pure justice doesn't require violence. Unfortunately, pure justice cannot be wrought through violence by sinful man. The best we can manage to do is to restore, physically and in part, the physical order that men have already messed up through [i]in[/i]justice. God is the only one who can properly judge what is "due" in recompense for a sin. Rational men can pretty fairly judge if a person is a threat to other people, or that a material thing that has been unjustly taken should be returned. Irrational men think that an artificial violent monopoly on certain types of violence should be given to a select group of average men, [i]by [/i]average men, and believe that the result will usually be "justice," as though such men would be more wise, holy and virtuous than Joe Average, and have some physical incentive to be more just than Joe Average. Irrational men think the wrath of men works the justice of God.
[/quote]
Again, your anarchism is not with the mind of the Church.
And you speak a lot about this Joe Average fellow. I suppose I really should meet him sometime.