Life And Death Moral Scenario

[Nihil Obstat]

I overlooked the act of lying when I posted back there.

Best part is that I get to blame the anesthetic I'm on until tomorrow.

[Mark of the Cross]

In the scenario given, an option might be to use the card then come clean after treatment and offer to pay somehow? The sin can be forgiven when recompense is offered. Yes?? (that's a question not a statement) However I would hope that the US would consider it a moral obligation to treat first ask financial questions later. It certainly is in Oz. If the media got hold of a violation there would be hell to pay.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 July 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1279235907' post='2143168']
I overlooked the act of lying when I posted back there.

Best part is that I get to blame the anesthetic I'm on until tomorrow.
[/quote]

At least you have an excuse. I behave as though I am on an anaesthetic normally.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='15 July 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1279235451' post='2143164']
What does "permissible" mean? Does that mean that an act that is intrinsically evil, and thus a sin, is sometimes not evil? Or is evil sometimes permissible?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
I mean to say it might not be a sin, but it still would not be good of itself. However, preservation of a life could take precedence over a social contract. We're talking about human life on one hand and money on the other. It may be permissible to lie to save someone's life. In the given scenario, there is reason to fear the person will not receive adequate care without proof of insurance.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i like how quickly the debate goes to rationalize not helping out, trying to insist on alternatives to deception, like finding alterantive hospitals. or, how many hospitals might have to treat them. sure, we do ahve to consider all alterantives before 'justifying the means', or at least even considering it, etc. and for that, these posts are okay.
but they miss the point, and not just hte point of the ethics assignment.
when push comes to shove, does the end justify the means? are you willing to live with yourself when someone innocent dies, for the sake of your precious principles? over things that aren't really hurting anyone?
i can respect saying the ends doesn't justify the means, generally. in this situation, i suppose i could see many views. sometimes it's not respectable, at all, though.

im a proportionalist, through and through
(as opposed to pure consequentialism, and deontology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionalism

Edited July 16, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 July 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1279239710' post='2143198']
I mean to say it might not be a sin, but it still would not be good of itself. However, preservation of a life could take precedence over a social contract. We're talking about human life on one hand and money on the other. It may be permissible to lie to save someone's life. In the given scenario, there is reason to fear the person will not receive adequate care without proof of insurance.
[/quote]

If the act is intrinsically morally wrong, as lying is, then it is a sin. Sins are never permissible.

Culpability for sin is an entirely different issue. Whether one is culpable for a sin depends, in part, on the degree of consent of the will.

Lying is never morally acceptable. One may never deliberately take that route. Not even if all the innocent lives of the entire world depended on it. We are called to be radical Catholics. It is preferable to die than to commit one venial sin.

~Sternhauser

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='16 July 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1279242280' post='2143213']
are you willing to live with yourself when someone innocent dies, for the sake of your precious principles? over things that aren't really hurting anyone?

[/quote]

'There is no greater love than to lay down ones own life for another.' I think to sin and thus to take a burden on self to save some-ones life could be covered by this.

[tinytherese]

Class was odd. Those for using the card went into one room and those against (me) went stayed where we were. I was surprised to be on the majority side. Then the others came back in while some people were assigned to "helping Benny" (in the parking lot since we don't have mountains around here ) so that he wouldn't get even more hurt. Eventually, some people supposedly got into our professor's truck to drive him to the hospital. We didn't actually see what they were doing or if someone volunteered to be Benny or what since I we were confined to the building.

Then there was the debate. We had a hard time trying to explain to the other side that considering his serious condition he would be immediately treated before even discussing payment. They insisted that he would be treated much later and wouldn't get the best treatment available. (My side was confused about what the article meant by not getting the better care for not having insurance.) I brought up how you would need to show your driver's licence with the insurance card to verify proof, but that point seemed to go unnoticed by my peers.

Once we were finished debating, our teacher went off somewhere for a little bit and came back to tell us that Benny had died before getting to the hospital. The rest of the class soon returned.

I think if our professor wanted to teach us about whether we should lie to save someone's life or not that he should use a better example than this one.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='15 July 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1279245964' post='2143242']
'There is no greater love than to lay down ones own life for another.' I think to sin and thus to take a burden on self to save some-ones life could be covered by this.
[/quote]

Your statement is heretical, though I know you don't realize it is.

Are you really claiming that God can be pleased by a sinful act?

~Sternhauser

Edited July 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MissScripture]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='15 July 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1279246073' post='2143244']
Class was odd. Those for using the card went into one room and those against (me) went stayed where we were. I was surprised to be on the majority side. Then the others came back in while some people were assigned to "helping Benny" (in the parking lot since we don't have mountains around here ) so that he wouldn't get even more hurt. Eventually, some people supposedly got into our professor's truck to drive him to the hospital. We didn't actually see what they were doing or if someone volunteered to be Benny or what since I we were confined to the building.

Then there was the debate. We had a hard time trying to explain to the other side that considering his serious condition he would be immediately treated before even discussing payment. They insisted that he would be treated much later and wouldn't get the best treatment available. (My side was confused about what the article meant by not getting the better care for not having insurance.) [b]I brought up how you would need to show your driver's licence with the insurance card to verify proof, but that point seemed to go unnoticed by my peers.[/b]

Once we were finished debating, our teacher went off somewhere for a little bit and came back to tell us that Benny had died before getting to the hospital. The rest of the class soon returned.

I think if our professor wanted to teach us about whether we should lie to save someone's life or not that he should use a better example than this one.
[/quote]
This doesn't really surprise me, since it has always seemed to me, in any class debate that I've ever been involved in, there is really very little listening done.

Edited July 16, 2010 by MissScripture

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279246096' post='2143245']
Your statement is heretical, though I know you don't realize it is.

Are you really claiming that God can be pleased by a sinful act?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I don't think I inferred that he would be pleased about it. I won't argue the point there. But to sacrifice (selflessness) to save another is generally considered an act of good. Suicide is considered to be a sin, but to knowing put yourself in a situation where you will be killed, but you are doing it for the safety of another is not generally considered to be suicide and by the quotation it is definitely not a sin. God may not approve of sinful methods to achieve good, but surely he would give consideration to the objective and declare it not a sin or give absolution by means of consideration of the objective. I guess I am trying to say that God is very broad minded and is not going to operate by a narrow handbook of rules and regulations, he can give absolution by means other than remorse, confession if he sees fit. If he wants to say that an act because of its objective is not a sin then he can do that because he is God. He can do anything he wants and you can't stop him. LOL. As you've noted I'm not an authority on Church teaching and my points are debatable. But I do think it's worth debating them. I don't think it is heretical to make a point and then be pointed out that it is not church teaching. It would only be heretical if it were not accepted after being pointed out. How do we learn to ride a bike if we don't fall off... often?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='15 July 2010 - 10:03 PM' timestamp='1279249439' post='2143278']
I don't think I inferred that he would be pleased about it. I won't argue the point there. But to sacrifice (selflessness) to save another is generally considered an act of good.[/quote]


The word "sacrifice" means, literally, "to make holy." One can't make a sin holy. Nor can one make oneself holy by sinning.

[quote] Suicide is considered to be a sin, but to knowing put yourself in a situation where you will be killed, but you are doing it for the safety of another is not generally considered to be suicide and by the quotation it is definitely not a sin.[/quote]

The main sin of suicide is despair.


[quote]God may not approve of sinful methods to achieve good, but surely he would give consideration to the objective and declare it not a sin or give absolution by means of consideration of the objective. I guess I am trying to say that God is very broad minded and is not going to operate by a narrow handbook of rules and regulations, he can give absolution by means other than remorse, confession if he sees fit. If he wants to say that an act because of its objective is not a sin then he can do that because he is God. He can do anything he wants and you can't stop him.[/quote]

Then what we're discussing is the sin of presumption of God's mercy, in addition to the sin of lying.


[quote]As you've noted I'm not an authority on Church teaching and my points are debatable. But I do think it's worth debating them. I don't think it is heretical to make a point and then be pointed out that it is not church teaching. It would only be heretical if it were not accepted after being pointed out. How do we learn to ride a bike if we don't fall off... often?
[/quote]

I think you might have misunderstood me. I didn't call you a heretic. I said the ideas you were proposing are heretical (officially condemned by the Catholic Church.) You would only be a heretic, as you pointed out, if you recognized that those ideas were actually contrary to the teaching of the Church and continued to steadfastly hold to them.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 July 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1279234429' post='2143157']
So true.

However, emergency medicine to save someone's life should qualify across the board, right?
[/quote]

Sure depending on what "procedure" they claim will "save their life". I find this debate to be riddled with ambiguity. What some people say will save a life might fall under what another claims to be an unethical or immoral procedure i.e. abortion, euthanasia, etc.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='15 July 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1279247161' post='2143260']
This doesn't really surprise me, since it has always seemed to me, in any class debate that I've ever been involved in, there is really very little listening done.
[/quote]

it's more that the point of showing ID or whatever, is for the most party irrelevant. as i said in my last post. the main point of the debate is 'does the ends justify the means'. it's not to get hung up on pointing out alterantives, or pointing out how the example is a bad one. that's why no one thought the point was worth going into further.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='16 July 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1279295028' post='2143429']
it's more that the point of showing ID or whatever, is for the most party irrelevant. as i said in my last post. the main point of the debate is 'does the ends justify the means'. it's not to get hung up on pointing out alterantives, or pointing out how the example is a bad one. that's why no one thought the point was worth going into further.
[/quote]
OR it's because they refused to realize that the world is not a hypothetical situation where you can manipulate the details to how you would like them to be when you don't really have a leg to stand on.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 July 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1279144841' post='2142725']
You can pre-pay some money on a credit card. You could take him to the nearest charity hospital or medical school hospital. You can also immediately demand the hospital's patient advocate. Having someone standing there watching, and demanding they treat their friend can also go a long way.

[/quote]


Good advice. Except NEVER NEVER NEVER pay medical bills with a credit card. NEVER. Negotiating with a hospital over a huge bill is WAY easier than negotiating with a credit card company. Late/non-payment to a hospital does not effect your credit report, nor do they charge huge interest rates. If you happen to go belly up, anything charged on your credit card counts as "consumer debt" which can make filing for bankruptcy more difficult.

If Benny is seriously injured, no one will bother to ask for insurance before starting care. ALL non-profit hospitals are required to provide charity care, both emergent and non emergent, to maintain their tax exempt status. There are other things to do besides lie.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1279251044' post='2143289']
The word "sacrifice" means, literally, "to make holy." One can't make a sin holy. Nor can one make oneself holy by sinning.
[/quote]
Yes, you are correct but 'sacrifice' also has a broader meaning which is what I was referring to.

'the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.' (Dictionary.com)

[quote]The main sin of suicide is despair. [/quote]

You wouldn't pheel dispair at losing you life even though you were doing it for an unselfish act?????


[quote]Then what we're discussing is the sin of presumption of God's mercy, in addition to the sin of lying.

[/quote]
Do you really see presumption of God's broad mindeness, compassion, flexibility, absolute love, 'no sin of yours is greater than my love for you', or what ever positive attribute that you can imagine as a sin????? I think he would be delighted at my presumptuousness!

[quote]I think you might have misunderstood me. I didn't call you a heretic. I said the ideas you were proposing are heretical (officially condemned by the Catholic Church.) You would only be a heretic, as you pointed out, if you recognized that those ideas were actually contrary to the teaching of the Church and continued to steadfastly hold to them.

~Sternhauser[/quote]

Throughout discussions on PM people have given references to Church teaching. I have found them to be instructive, even beautiful and poetic in their refelection of love and intelligence in their understanding of a loving, intelligent and compassionate creator. I would not refute any of them, they express my desires exactly. For me to write something that is heresy is something that I would think would be offensive to God. So naturally when someones suggests that I have done so, I find it somewhat disconcerting and a little offensive. So I would like them to give me a reference so that I can take immediate steps to correct any such event, which I am happy to do. But generally I have found that such things are more due to misunderstanding. Spiritual matters are very complex and require much discussion because either the person doesn't fully understand what the Church teaches or have used a vague and irrelevant text or I have not written clearly what I was intending and people have misunderstood or added other interpretations. I think a golden rule might be if what you think is out of love for you God and your neighbour then you can't go far wrong.
Back to the subject: I would think that if a person elected to let some-one die rather than commit a minor sin would not make God very happy. I'm pretty sure he would expect something better.
Answer this: You can sin by what you 'have failed to do.' as well as what you did. So if the choices are all sinnful to lesser or greater extents, what will you do????
It might have been interesting if 'TinyTherese' had made this thread a poll. so we could get an idea of what people think (very important!)

[jeffpugh]

In short: this "lesson" seems to be an Obamacare propaganda piece.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='16 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279310909' post='2143582']
Good advice. Except NEVER NEVER NEVER pay medical bills with a credit card. NEVER. Negotiating with a hospital over a huge bill is WAY easier than negotiating with a credit card company. Late/non-payment to a hospital does not effect your credit report, nor do they charge huge interest rates. If you happen to go belly up, anything charged on your credit card counts as "consumer debt" which can make filing for bankruptcy more difficult.
[/quote]
Non-payment to a hospital does eventually affect your credit, since the hospital or other medical professionals will eventually turn unpaid bills over to collections agencies who will report it on your credit.

In our experience, hospitals frequently have programs to accommodate people who don't have insurance or who don't have adequate insurance. It's cheaper for them to get a percentage of what you owe than to write it off for pennies on the dollar by sending it to a collection agency, or to pursue you via lawsuit. You can negotiate.

[let_go_let_God]

The problem I see is that they moved Benny. It is far easier to get an ambulance there who can stabilize him on site. They can also start administering care that your friends cannot on site. By doing this his chances of survival are far better than moving him. By doing this as well, Benny gets immediate attention rather than potentially waiting even a moment for a doctor to do an initial assessment of the patient rather than diving right in.

God bless-
LGLG