Explaining Why Convents Only Take 18-35 Year Olds?

[loveletslive]

i am having a good conversation with my islamic friend about vocations to religious life, but i can't quite explain why most communities only take 18-35 year olds. what are some reasons?

[Winchester]

It's the age group for which most movies are made.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='loveletslive' date='24 July 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1280028842' post='2147708']
i am having a good conversation with my islamic friend about vocations to religious life, but i can't quite explain why most communities only take 18-35 year olds. what are some reasons?
[/quote]

There are some very good reasons, but since I'm not an expert on religious life, I'm going to ask the mods to move this post to the Vocation Station forum where the "experts" hang out.

BTW--There are good logical reasons, and there are also communities that accept older vocations.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Moved so hopefully someone here in VS can give a helpful response.

[Starets]

There are a few reasons why this might be the case. women's communities seem to be stricter on the age thing than mens communities.

First is simnply practical. It is hard to adjust to religiopus life, and the older you are the more setn in your ways you become. It is simply easier to adapt the younger you are. Then again i joined when I was 45 and we have a postulant who is past 60 so its not a hard and fast rule. at least not for guys, generally speaking. The hardewst thing about this life is thee fact that you live and work with the same people 24/7.

[Sarah147]

Health! There are more and sooner health problems the older you are, so they want younger. It would be harder for them to get around, bills, having to drive to doctors, etc. But I think especially that older are harder to form.

It's frustrating, as I'm finding even younger limits, like to age 25, 27 or 30.

Edited July 25, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[CatherineM]

When I was discerning an older vocation, my spiritual director told me that I would have trouble adjusting. I was set in my ways, and used to being very independent.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Since I have not experienced religious life first-hand, my information is from a variety of sources.

1. Lower Age Limits: When I first posted in VS, I wondered if 18-year olds were really mature enough to make a decision to join religious life, and wondered by convents admitted women so young. A few answers I received:

--As others have said, younger women, especially those just out of high school, are more used to living under the obedience of their parents and the very structured schedule of high school, so convent living is closer to their lifestyle "in the world." They are more used to having to ask permission. They also are used to having little or no money of their own, and normally have far fewer possessions than someone who has lived in an apartment and a house. They are more likely to be virgins, so celibacy is something they are used to. (From my personal experience, I know that it is harder to be celibate after you are married, or used to regular sex, than if you have not yet experienced sex.)

--18-year olds have an enthusiasm and an energy that is joyful and contagious. For Sisters who have been in religious life for awhile, young Sisters are a reminder of the early joys and excitements of religious life. They often have a "romantic" vision of religious life, and from what I have seen, if this vision doesn't turn them away from religious life, it instead makes it easier for them to get through the difficulties of formation.

--One vocation director wrote in an article somewhere that, although in some ways it is useful for a young woman to have gone to college, and have a few more life experiences, before entering the convent. However, she said that often some of these life experiences have been negative ones and left scars that need to be dealt with and healed.

--Before reading VS I wondered if an 18-year old could be mature enough to really "know" she has a religious vocation. Perhaps some young women aren't ready. But, once I saw the faith and the knowledge, and the true desire to serve God of the many young woman on VS, they changed my mind. Many of the posters here have a deeper faith and relationship with Christ, and a genuine desire to serve Him in any way he asks, than I will ever have.

--A younger woman has more years to work and contribute to the income of the Community than an older woman.

--18-year olds don't have college debts that need to be paid before she can enter.

2. Upper Age Limits: As I have read the descriptions and Web sites of many religious Orders, 35 is not a "magic" age--for some it is 30, for many it is 40, and for some it is 50. And many Web sites say that Orders are willing to accept older vocations on a case-by-case basis.

--One issue that others have already brought up is health. In general, women under 30 are healthier and have more energy.

--Obviously the difficulties of getting used to an austere lifestyle, and particularly obedience, are very different depending on the woman. If a woman comes to the monastery from a position of responsibility, it may be very difficult for her to be seen as having the same status as an 18-year old postulant who entered at the same time. Even if the woman has an advanced degree, she will be spending the first few years, at least, cleaning toilets and having to ask permission for what she might see as "small things" just like the 18-year olds do. She may have more training in secular life, but she is just as much a beginner in the religious life as an 18-year old.

Obviously, this is going to differ by the woman, by her temperament, what she did before entering the convent, etc. If she has been in the Army, for example, she is probably more used to a regimented way of life and "taking orders."

--The older you get, the more you acquire--not just "things," but also close friends, a boyfriend, pets, a car (and the independence it represents). Also, your parents are getting older, and you may feel responsibilities for them.

--There are some obvious possible positives to being older. A woman may have held a job for several years, even gained responsibility, but came to a realization that, although she was on the way to obtaining what she thought she wanted, it wasn't enough. So, her willingness to give up what she has had may be easier in many ways, because she has had it, and knows it is not enough. Many of these women may have a stronger vocation than some younger women, and are ready to live a humble lifestyle--to give everything.

The reasons why older vocations are taken on a case-by-case basis:

--Each woman will have different experiences that may make it harder or easier to take certain of the vows.

--Health IS an issue, particularly because some Orders have a large number of elderly Sisters relative to younger Sisters. The Order's first responsibility is to the Sisters already professed, to make sure that there is enough money that they are well cared for. And, Sisters tend to live a long time. I've looked at obituaries of the retirement home for religious across the street from me, and unless they die of cancer (which is unusual), very few Sisters die before their late 80's, and the norm is more like their 90's, with many over 100. Very elderly Sisters require much more care than even Sisters of 65 and 70. But, many teaching Sisters, for example, now retired, worked all their carriers being paid less than half what lay teachers would make and without a retirement plan. Making sure that elderly Sisters who have dedicated their lives to the service of the Church are well cared for is a real problem.

--Also, part of the reason health is an issue is that even if a Sister is in her 50's, she is likely to have at least some health problems (there's something about turning 50), and with some glowing exceptions, she normally just doesn't have the energy of an 18 or 20 year old. It's not that she cannot contribute to the work of the monastery, and certainly, her ability to pray or sing is not less, but monasterys also need willing hands to help clean and cook, as well as do work that contributes to the income of the monastery.

--Older vocations have even more ties to the world--children, relatives, often a house, a car, pets. And, if her parents are alive, they are likely to be very elderly and sick. Even if the woman is ready to give "the world," she still may have responsibilities that can't be ignored.

As for male versus female vocations. For some reason I haven't figured out, older vocations don't seem to be as much of an issue in men's communities. I only have one theory, which I'm sure doesn't explain it all by any means. In the stories I've read of older vocations, it seems many men want to join religious life to atone for their previous life. Not necessarily commiting a crime, but losing their relationship with God. They seem ready to embrace an austere life style and hard physical labor. I know that's only a partial answer, and maybe Staretz can speak to it better.

This is a lot of words, trying to summarize a big topic. I know I have forgotten things or haven't explained things well, but I hope it helps. I also hope it may spark some ideas in other VS posters, either new ideas, or expanding on what I have written.

Edited July 25, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' date='25 July 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1280079882' post='2147868']
Health! There are more and sooner health problems the older you are, so they want younger. It would be harder for them to get around, bills, having to drive to doctors, etc. But I think especially that older are harder to form.

It's frustrating, as I'm finding even younger limits, like to age 25, 27 or 30.
[/quote]

Wow! I've never heard of any limits in the twenties... that's amazing. My community has a limit at age 35 but it is something that can be talked about in special circumstances. The reasons already given were great but another one that I was thinking about was the education necessary in active communities to live the apostolate. We are teachers and it is important to have both the stamina and knowledge to be full time educators, and full time religious women... and sometimes full time students. The result is not a lot of sleep, jk! But that is why there are so many communities that have different age brackets. There is a place for everyone God calls! If you are struggling with the age thing, don't lose heart!

Prayers,
Sister Marie

[MarieLynn]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='26 July 2010 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1280080442' post='2147878']
When I was discerning an older vocation, my spiritual director told me that I would have trouble adjusting. I was set in my ways, and used to being very independent.
[/quote]


This appears to be the perception these days, however I feel that an older vocation would have had life experience, a fact that appears to be overlooked, by some. An older vocation would also know what it was that they were giving up, and would be less likely to make a less informed decision, as might a younger person.

IMHO, I feel that an older candidate would be more of an asset to the community, than not. I take the point that an older person is more likely to have health issues, but I can only use my own yardstick in this situation. As I work in the Health Sector, we are more likely to employ an older Nurse (40+) than one straight out of Grad School, because the older nurse would have had clinical experience, whereas the younger nurse might yet to have any post grad experience. We also find that the older nurse can relate to our patients in ways that the younger ones have yet to learn.

I feel that the age to enter should be "open", and that acceptance should not be bound to what after all are a set of numbers. If Orders wish to attract and retain vocations, then the ability to be more flexible has to be exercised, when it comes to late vocations. Apart from the physical aspect, who is to say that a 50 yr old would be less acceptable than someone in their 20's.

[Totus Tuus]

The most common answer that a religious community will give you, in my experience, is that past 35 women are usually too set in their ways to conform to a rule of obedience.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Staretz' date='25 July 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1280077972' post='2147864']
There are a few reasons why this might be the case. women's communities seem to be stricter on the age thing than mens communities.

First is simnply practical. It is hard to adjust to religiopus life, and the older you are the more setn in your ways you become. It is simply easier to adapt the younger you are. Then again i joined when I was 45 and we have a postulant who is past 60 so its not a hard and fast rule. at least not for guys, generally speaking. The hardewst thing about this life is thee fact that you live and work with the same people 24/7.
[/quote]

Actually ... for guys the rules are a bit more flexible with respect to age. And from the last experience I had (where I was in a community where there was a women's branch as well as a men's branch) women and men deal with age differences differently.

In the men's branch ... there were older postulants that entered, and stayed successfully. In the women's branch -- nope.

I don't know why; but women and men differ in this area. Definitely.

I do agree with other statements -- there is an adjustment factor at play. I was in formation with mostly 18-19-20 year olds, and the one that was next to me in age was 9 years my younger (I was 37, the next was 28, etc. downwards). Also 99% of the sisters, *including final professed* were younger than me. There were maybe 3 or 4 that were older. It really does make a difference (at least on their part ... I really didn't pay attention to the age, unless I really felt an immaturity from the sister).

Also -- it would be different when there is a good range of ages ... i.e. if the community is more established (not numbers wise but years wise in existence), then you have a whole range of ages and experience, and that does help with respect to older vocations. It really doesn't work well when its a very young community.

I've come to accept this limitation (and that I haven't quite found the right community yet, and maybe I never will). Maybe over time I will be able to explain to myself the age issue (in women's communities). And, maybe I'll understand it the day I am in His presence, in which case it really won't matter anymore.

[Cherie]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='26 July 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1280121454' post='2148154']
Actually ... for guys the rules are a bit more flexible with respect to age. And from the last experience I had (where I was in a community where there was a women's branch as well as a men's branch) women and men deal with age differences differently.

In the men's branch ... there were older postulants that entered, and stayed successfully. In the women's branch -- nope.

I don't know why; but women and men differ in this area. Definitely.

[/quote]

Men's communities are definitely different in that regard! I think a big reason is the fact that there is a HUGE difference in the formation/living of religious life in mens' and womens' communities. Hearing our nonagenarian Irish Dominican chaplain talk about the things (often hysterically funny and quite incredible things!) that happened in the priories -- we Sisters always went away from those conversations saying to each other, "Mens' communities are VERY different from women's communities!!" I honestly think men are given a lot more "freedoms" than womens' religious communities have. They just do things very differently, and I think that adds to the fact that they can take men who are older and have it all work out just fine. Plus, I'm sure it has a lot to do with the inherent differences in men and women. Perhaps men aren't as sensitive to the "age difference" between fellow religious that women are?

I would also echo what Totus Tuus said - the most common answer for a question like that was mostly that it's more difficult for "older" vocations because they are more "set in their ways" and would have a hard time transitioning to the changes and rules that obedience would oblige.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='26 July 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1280145526' post='2148183']
Men's communities are definitely different in that regard! I think a big reason is the fact that there is a HUGE difference in the formation/living of religious life in mens' and womens' communities. Hearing our nonagenarian Irish Dominican chaplain talk about the things (often hysterically funny and quite incredible things!) that happened in the priories -- we Sisters always went away from those conversations saying to each other, "Mens' communities are VERY different from women's communities!!" I honestly think men are given a lot more "freedoms" than womens' religious communities have. They just do things very differently, and I think that adds to the fact that they can take men who are older and have it all work out just fine. Plus, I'm sure it has a lot to do with the inherent differences in men and women. Perhaps men aren't as sensitive to the "age difference" between fellow religious that women are?

I would also echo what Totus Tuus said - the most common answer for a question like that was mostly that it's more difficult for "older" vocations because they are more "set in their ways" and would have a hard time transitioning to the changes and rules that obedience would oblige.
[/quote]

I agree with what Totus Tuus said -- but I also think it is a "pat" answer sometimes. Its much more than that really and its an adjustment issue on *both* sides of the fence. You can get an older person who is not "set in her ways" but a community not accepting of her.

I think part of the problem could be that men's communities have a lot more freedoms. And that is lacking in women's communities (again why -- I don't know).

I was just remembering one thing about the community I was with (with both men and women's branches)
Men's branch: you had 30 minutes to get ready after the bell was rung before needing to be in chapel. This included getting the bed made.
Women's branch: you had 15 minutes ... (!)

Maybe the additional minutes was needed for the guys so that they could shave?

Edited July 26, 2010 by cmariadiaz

[Cherie]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='26 July 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1280169271' post='2148297']
I agree with what Totus Tuus said -- but I also think it is a "pat" answer sometimes. Its much more than that really and its an adjustment issue on *both* sides of the fence. You can get an older person who is not "set in her ways" but a community not accepting of her.
[/quote]

Oh, I definitely agree that it is a "pat" answer. I had mentioned before I know of a New York socialite woman who entered a very austere Discalced Carmelite monastery at the age of 70! According to that answer, being a socialite and being 70, she'd NEVER be able to handle the rigors of religious life ... but she is proof that God's ways are not our ways! Although she admitted the transition was difficult (and I think it can be just as difficult for an 18-year-old--anyone's transition to religious life is difficult, because it's so different from life in the world) ... she has made her final vows and is doing VERY well!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='26 July 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1280169686' post='2148301']
Oh, I definitely agree that it is a "pat" answer. I had mentioned before I know of a New York socialite woman who entered a very austere Discalced Carmelite monastery at the age of 70! According to that answer, being a socialite and being 70, she'd NEVER be able to handle the rigors of religious life ... but she is proof that God's ways are not our ways! Although she admitted the transition was difficult (and I think it can be just as difficult for an 18-year-old--anyone's transition to religious life is difficult, because it's so different from life in the world) ... she has made her final vows and is doing VERY well!
[/quote]

This may be a different person, but the nun I'm aware of was from San Francisco and entered a Carmelite community here in Illinois and she is still there. I hope she actually is doing well there, (as opposed to the community just saying she is doing fine, as they would say about any member of the community, because it really is no one else's business how she is doing). At the time she entered, her children (and friends) gave interviews because she was so well known in San Francisco society, and apparently she was a very difficult parent who became alienated from a couple of her children, as well as being a difficult person in general. Based on her personality, I would expect almost any religious community to turn her down, whatever her age.

I have always wondered whether the reason the community took her, and overlooked her age and personality was because she was very rich and likely brought a big dowry with her. I'm not saying AT ALL that the nuns were materialistic. But, I HAVE wondered whether a different 70-year old applicant (even one with an ideal personality for the community) would have been admitted. I'm sure the money WAS NOT used to provide luxuries for the nuns, but to help pay the debts that Communities always seem to have, and to be able to give more money to charities and others in need. Also, because of the money, the community wouldn't have to worry about paying medical expenses when this nun got older--that is a very real concern for many communities with that have lots of elderly Sisters and nuns.

I read an interesting story fairly recently about the community she entered. The community was filing a suit because they had been defrauded of, I believe, $800,000, by an Ugandan couple. My first thought was "Where did the community get $800,000 to give away?" Also, (as an aside) it showed, at least to me, that there may be some benefit in at least one member of the community staying in touch with the world sufficiently to hear of the numerous scams that have been perpetrated over the Internet and other ways by crooks from Uganda, and looked into the situation more before giving money. There have been several instances in the past few years of frauds in the Chicago area, perpetrated by Ugandans.

I will give the convent the benefit of the doubt, but I have always wondered about all the reasons this nun was accepted, especially when I went back and read the reports in the San Francisco press about this nun's entrance.

On a related subject, I will not give details or name names but a woman over 50 on Phatmass had applied to numerous convents and most turned her down simply because of her age and no other information. And, although she did enter at least two, it didn't work out. I have no idea if it didn't work out because it was not the right community for her, but from her accounts, she felt that least one issue was because the members of the community had a very hard time dealing with an older postulant.

I also have often wondered how younger postulants react to an older postulant. I have never been in religious life, but I have heard younger women say (not ALL younger women by any means--just some) that they would prefer a religious community with a lot of younger people. And, I think this is an honest concern. Older nuns might not understand how different it is to grow up in today's world, and so not understand how today's younger postulant has inevitably led a very different life from when the older nun was a postulant. Also, the younger women, quite understandably, want to join an Community that is alive and well, not dying out.

But, I also remember that when I was in my teens and 20's, I often felt uncomfortable around older or elderly people--and that is something I am not proud of. As I have gotten older, I have realized that in very many important ways I still feel as if I am still 18--many of your emotions don't change. Middle-aged and older people are not THAT different from younger people if you get to know them as friends, not as parents.

Just to give one example, I have heard younger people (no one here on Phatmass) say they feel that it's kind of gross when an older couple falls in love and gets married, as if sex is only for younger people. You definitely don't lose your need for love and yes, for sex, as you get older. Your body is aging, but most of the emotions are still the same. Many older women have to get used to celibacy because there are so few older men around. But, I would venture to guess that many of them would love to have a husband to love, and have sex with. My grandmother fell in love with a man in her retirement community at age 84.

So, as I usually say, it's a difficult situation that I don't fully understand, and probably wouldn't fully understand or be able to help change even if I knew at lot more about religious life. I understand the points of view of both sides, and both sides have honest concerns that deserve to be taken seriously.

I'm glad this subject was brought up, and I have appreciated all the responses, and look forward to hearing the points of view of others.

Edited July 26, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Cherie]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 July 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1280175287' post='2148351']
This may be a different person, but the nun I'm aware of was from San Francisco and entered a Carmelite community here in Illinois and she is still there. I hope she actually is doing well there, (as opposed to the community just saying she is doing fine as they would say about any member of the community, because it really is no one else's business how she is doing). At the time she entered, her children (and friends) gave interviews because she was so well known in San Francisco society, and apparently she was a very difficult parent who became alienated from a couple of her children, as well as being a difficult person in general. Based on her personality, I would expect almost any religious community to turn her down, whatever her age.
[/quote]

Ah, I'm quite sure it must be the same nun. The reason why I said she was from New York is because the Sister I know who knows her is also a socialite, but she is from New York. Apparently she is doing well aside from the community itself saying so, because she would periodically write the Sister I know and say so herself.

I don't know any of the circumstances regarding finances and I really wouldn't like to speculate, but I know that she was put under the same rigors that all their postulants go through when she entered, which provided some pretty humbling (and sometimes humorous!) stories that she had related.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='26 July 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1280176607' post='2148372']
Ah, I'm quite sure it must be the same nun. The reason why I said she was from New York is because the Sister I know who knows her is also a socialite, but she is from New York. Apparently she is doing well aside from the community itself saying so, because she would periodically write the Sister I know and say so herself.

I don't know any of the circumstances regarding finances and I really wouldn't like to speculate, but I know that she was put under the same rigors that all their postulants go through when she entered, which provided some pretty humbling (and sometimes humorous!) stories that she had related. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]

I'm VERY glad to hear from an unofficial source that she is doing well (rather than from "official" sources who quite correctly guard their words), because I honestly wish the best for anyone who enters religious life.

If I remember the articles correctly, this nun had always been very religious (although she loved her husband, too). And, I guess that a person who has such a "strong" personality can, if they want, turn their "strong will" in a different direction to use it on themselves in learning obedience to God. It's a good lesson to us that we shouldn't assume the limits of what God can accomplish when he and the person are working toward the same goal.

And, I'm sure that the money that this nun brought with her to the monastery has been used for acts of goodness and kindness that we will never hear about (and shouldn't). Not to forget that having influential friends can help accomplish good things, as well. And, considering the publicity she got when she entered, the faith that this nun has shown HAS to have had influence extending to people who have never met her.

Edited July 26, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 July 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1280175287' post='2148351']
I also have often wondered how younger postulants react to an older postulant. I have never been in religious life, but I have heard younger women say (not ALL younger women by any means--just some) that they would prefer a religious community with a lot of younger people. And, I think this is an honest concern. Older nuns might not understand how different it is to grow up in today's world, and so not understand how today's younger postulant has inevitably led a very different life from when the older nun was a postulant. Also, the younger women, quite understandably, want to join an Community that is alive and well, not dying out.
[/quote]

Well my personal experience was that the younger NUNS/SISTERS had an issue with me; from a conversation with one of the postulants from my class who also left she didn't think that the other postulants had an issue with my age. We all had our issues/ways of being/quirks, and as a group of postulants we did get along (we were 17 at one time).

Personally I think the best community would be one with an entire range of ages -- lots of younger, lots of older, and lots-of-ages-inbetween. This is more balanced and healthier for formation; especially since they would have gone through many issues that younger communities have not faced (ex: death of its members).

Again I do need to say that my last situation in formation was not a standard one ... nonetheless the Lord allowed it for my growth and experience.