Sheep And Goats

[dominicansoul]

perhaps 1 billion catholics outta 6 billion people is considered "the few" that God is speaking of...

we can never know, only God knows... what's a lot to us may be a few to Him...

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='30 July 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1280504885' post='2149881']
Hell is the gift of free will and in that its justified. If God's love for you is 100% unconditional, then God must give you the ability to reject that love. And because it is our choice to be with God or not, there has to be a place for us to exist without His presence. If there were no hell, there would be no free will. We would have no choice but to accept God.[/QUOTE]

You are writing as though the dichotomy between eternal salvation and eternal damnation is the strictly logical consequence of free will. I see no reason to accecpt this premiss. The system is one created by God. Hunamity never asked for existence in the first place or immortality. Both of these are God's decision. Humanity never asked for death in this life. God decided that would be the consequence of Adam's sin. God could allow sinful humanity to remain in this life and simply take the Saints or those ready for purgatory in death. He could do any number of things differently that wouldn't result in human being being tortured for all eternity in hell.

[QUOTE]Now your argument (and its a popular one) suggests that there are people in hell who tried to be good folk and gave it their best but still didn't make the mark and are burning. And if that were indeed true, you would have a good argument for it not being justified. [/QUOTE]

I'm not really saying that at all. I am simply saying that nobody is totally evil and only somebody with no good in them could possibly merit eternal punishment. The Rich Man in hell asks Abraham (? Maybe it was another patriarch, it has been a long time since I nread the Bible, I'm sorry if that is incorrect) to warn his brothers so they will not suffer his fate. He was not a totally evil man. He had great faults but he was also capeable of selflessness and goodness. He stopped asking for the relief from his own sufferings (a drop of water on his tongue) and simply begged those in heaven to help him warn his brothers so they could be spared his fate. That man did not deserve eternal damnation.

[QUOTE]But when Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling, its because we have the opportunity to reject God at any given moment. And that's what scared him. (And that's what scares me too) Here's an example that I use in my own life. I have mentors that I admire a lot. They've taken me under their wing and have taught me more than I can say. I have a tremendous fear that I will let them down some day. Do i plan on letting them down? No and most likely I won't . But I would hate to do so. For me its the same with my relationship with God. Its my working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't try to downsize the population of hell because it troubles me. I downsize it because of scripture. ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26127a"]a[/url]][/sup] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." comes to mind.
[/quote]


That verse doesn't say anything about quantity. It simply says that God loved the world enough that he was willing to give his only son so that all might have the possability of eternal life. All the scriptre that I can think of which make quantative statements of the saved seem to emphaize that the number of saved will be few.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 July 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1280517978' post='2149962']
God only knows.
[/quote]

Probably the best answer given by anyone

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='30 July 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1280470538' post='2149816']
Personally, I try to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I try to run the race well (the verb "try" being the emphasized word). When I think about these things, I think about who is the active agent. It is not so much that God created Hell and damns people to it (an idea you get when you read things like Jonathan Edwards's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God") but rather that people beaver dam themselves through their own choices and actions. People choose hell ("actions speak louder than words" the old saying goes). Obviously, you know this distinction, but it does make a great deal of difference. In this way, Hell becomes a type of mercy. God will not force His presence on another who does not want such a unity nor will He force one who has willingly chosen not to prepare himself (or has chosen to actively make himself not in accord with who God is) to be in His presence, since such a presence may cause the one to have pain or to suffer and that is a suffering forced on another actively by God since He would be holding back something that they have worked for (separation from Him not only in presence but in the way they have formed their own being). In this way, Hell then is the place where such a person who has chosen not to be in God's presence can go. He can be separated. However, such a separation is chosen on our parts and we work for it. Justice is giving what is due to another. The fruits of one's labors can be Hell and separation from God. Thus infinite Justice demands a Hell for people to choose. Being eternally separated from God is a suffering yes. However, it is a suffering chosen (I don't think Hell is full of fire though the imagery definitely conveys the being of it all well), which is very different even from this life where we often suffer things we don't choose as well as the things we do choose. Yes, Hell is full of wailing and gnashing of teeth and it is an eternal separation from God which would cause much suffering, but often times people reject God and embrace the consequences no matter what (people often choose things and don't want to admit they are wrong and will suffer and suffer rather than admit they were wrong, I don't see how this differs much). Yes, such events are sad; however, I fail to see how there is a distinction (other than in degree) between these events. It seems we should mourn all these actions the same since at the root they are the same, one is too proud to admit He is wrong and would rather suffer separation in some form or another from the Absolute Good. If one would choose such a course of action in small things, why would you expect them to do otherwise in big things since they have already formed their personality and virtues or vices. This type of suffering is a consequence of misused free will. Sad, but that is the way it is.
[/quote]

You and Jai me made many simmilar points. I appreciated your post and I read it carefully. For now I just responded to hot stuff since I'd mostly be repeating myself and I'd appreciate your thoughts on that. In a few days I'll probably respond to the extra points that you made here.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='30 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1280518208' post='2149963']
I do not see why less Catholics would go to heaven than non-Catholics considering the classic teaching of [i]extra Ecclesiam nulla salus[/i].
[/quote]


I didn't say less Catholics than non-catholics. I said less Catholics than we think will go.

[HisChildForever]

This thread makes me paranoid.

[KnightofChrist]

"The number of the elect is so small - so small - that, were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world!" - St. Louis Marie de Montfort

[HisChildForever]

That doesn't help.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 August 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1280697196' post='2150580']
This thread makes me paranoid.
[/quote]

"Fear not, daughter of Sion" - St. John

[Maggyie]

I think it was in [i]I Believe in Love[/i] that I read that truly the only way for a human being to go to Hell is to rip themselves out of God's arms at the moment of death. That book is wonderful reading material for those who are troubled by fears of going to Hell. It uses the teachings of St. Therese to show us that we can have absolute, undaunted confidence in God's love, His desire to save us, and His ability to overcome our weakness and our sins. He wants to save all of us. He can save all of us. Fear and lack of confidence is what troubles him the most. But we can offer to Him our fear and lack of confidence!

[Jaime]

It should be noted with all the saint quotes that if you were to ask most of the saints, they were convinced that they were amongst those going to hell.



Obviously they were wrong about that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='01 August 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1280702613' post='2150613']
It should be noted with all the saint quotes that if you were to ask most of the saints, they were convinced that they were amongst those going to hell.



Obviously they were wrong about that.
[/quote]

Similarly there are many that are convinced that they are going to heaven, that shall not enter its gates.

I disagree if we were to ask most of the saints many would be convinced they deserved hell, but I don't believe they would be convinced they were going to hell.