Freedom In Vocations

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' date='30 July 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1280543007' post='2150097']
"...is a way of helping us understand how much love Christ feels for us..."
Can you please explain that? "Feels for us..." In what kind of way is love detected in love making? Is it all physical organ sensation?
[/quote]

I can understand your question, because it is a difficult concept that is hard to find the right words to explain. It is DEFINITELY not all physical organ sensation, although that is an important part of it. In some way, that I don't completely understand, sexual intercourse creates an emotional and spiritual bond between husband and wife that includes, but transcends, the physical sensation. Somehow, and this is a paradox, while you still remain an individual, at the same time, your spouse becomes a physical part of you--"Becoming one flesh" may, after all these centuries, be the best way to explain it.

Another explanation that resonated with me, is definitely secular, but still expresses it. In his song, "Hearts and Bones" Paul Simon talks about his marriage and divorce from Carrie Fischer. The theme of the song "hearts and bones" is repeated several times, but at the end, the lyrics say something like, "You take two bodies and you twirl them into one, their hearts and bones, they won't come undone." Somehow, through marriage and sexual intercourse, you become united not only in your heart, but in your very bones.

Perhaps other people who are married (or who have been married) can explain it more eloquently than I can. Because it is definitely something spiritual, not a "rational" concept.

Edited July 31, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Sarah147]

Can you explain what in the way of emotions and spiritual is experienced? Ex. joy, affection, passion, contemplative love. Can it at all be compared to the ecstacies and high contemplation the Saints have experienced?

So are you saying that what a spouse experiences from their spouse in love making, is recognized for being from God (all good is from God) and so it helps your relationship with God? Does it get you more in touch with the love that comes direct from God, in general and in for example, Adoration, prayer, etc.? Does it change your relationship with God, elevate your love and prayer with God?

It is compelling, because God could have brought children about in any way. For example, a women just eating a certain plant and ending up pregnant. But, He chose this intimate, amazing union. Beyond creating children though, it must do something to their marital union and souls.

If there are any answers people would rather PM me about, feel free to do so.

This whole conversation is going to boggle Chiara's mind, heh.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' date='30 July 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1280544566' post='2150111']
Can you explain what in the way of emotions and spiritual is experienced? Ex. joy, affection, passion.

So are you saying that what a spouse experiences from their spouse in love making, is recognized for being from God, all good is from God, and so it helps your relationship with God? Does it get you more in touch with the love that comes direct from God, in for example, Adoration? Does it change your relationship with God, elevate your love and prayer with God?
[/quote]

Ideally, it should do all those things.

In sexual intercourse, you are sharing every part of yourself with your spouse. You "let go" and allow your spouse to see every part of you, even very personal expressions of joy that no one else sees, except God. Orgasm brings with it a definite "joy." To call it a "physical sensation" doesn't adequately explain it. And, by sharing such a private part of yourself with your spouse, it breaks down barriers, so that ideally you find it easier and more natural to share ALL all of your emotional and physical thoughts and feelings with your spouse, even things that are very personal, or that you might be ashamed of, that you have never talked about with anyone else before, making the emotional bond closer.

For physical anatomical reasons, and also because there are some possible down-sides to well-meaning attempts to promote purity, women can often find it difficult to overcome feelings that there is something sinful about sexual intercourse, even between a husband and a wife. For a man, orgasm is almost automatic. Some women reach orgasm easily, others find it very difficult. So, part of the way a husband shows love to his wife is to work on making it as easy as possible for his wife tell him and show him what pleases her most, something that most women find very difficult to share, at least at first, with the goal that she will achieve orgasm in sex, along with her husband. (By the way, I don't believe there is any "magic" in simultaneous orgasm. In fact, in some ways it is better not to, because then the husband or wife can concentrate on enjoying their spouse's experience of the joy of orgasm.) The idea that a woman is supposed to get as much physical pleasure as the man is so important in Jewish culture that it is actually part of the Jewish marriage contract that a husband is to make sure that his wife is physically satisfied in sexual intercourse. (I have never read the actual words of a Jewish marriage contract, so I can't quote anything, but I have been told and read in many different places that this clause is there.)

Ideally, this joy and breaking down of barriers will help your relationship with God, too, so that you better understand the joy God feels when you love him, and that you find it easier to share things with God in prayer that you might not have shared before. Obviously, God knows all about us, even if we don't tell him. But, somehow, admitting to God our faults and weaknesses, and getting in return not retribution or punishment, but a feeling of sharing of burdens, brings a great deal of peace. Obviously, God does not want us to sin, and it's not that he never corrects us, but it makes us closer to God if we can share those things willingly with him.

Orgasm also has positive health effects for the body. I haven't read the specifics recently, but I believe it can reduce blood pressure, help your sleep, etc. Not to mention that the feeling of being loved and accepted by both your spouse and by God, makes you feel happier. If your spouse, a human, can love and accept you with your faults, how much more can God accept us?

Obviously I am talking about ideals, and all these things won't happen immediately, and will take time and work. I know that doesn't sound romantic--Hollywood has a lot to answer for. But, that is part of the marriage relationship, and I, at least, believe that if couples can learn to share their feelings and needs, and to show thoughtfulness to each other in sexual intercourse, so that each of them enjoys sexual intercourse as much as possible, including the woman achieving orgasm as often as possible, that the marriage is stronger for this. I think that the more we feel loved and accepted by our spouse, the easier it becomes for us to understand and accept the very deep love God has for us. In fact, I'm not sure that we have good words in English to describe that deeper level of love in sexual intercourse--the word "love" seems inadequate.

Also, when a marriage is good, we thank God for it every day of our lives. So it helps our prayer life in being constantly grateful to God for the true love of a spouse, something that is unfortunately rarer than it should be--it is a gift, a very rare and precious gift.

I've never read "Theology of the Body" so I don't know if it captures all I've written or not. My natural thought is that it is virtually impossible for a man to understand what a woman wants, needs, and feels in sexual intercourse without her explaining it to him. Sexual intercourse and orgasm are both VERY different for men than for women. So, while I think it is possible that JPII was able to capture all this, I have a hard time imagining how a celibate male, and, I assume, a virgin male, could truly understand sexual intercourse in marriage. But, the Holy Sprit (and, with any luck, some input from married, candid women) has ways of helping people understand things they have never experienced. I hope so.

I didn't have a perfect marriage, so I didn't personally experience all these things. But, I learned enough to understand the ideal I wanted, and what I would have loved to have had. I've also talked with women who do have close, loving marriages and satisfying sex lives (although no marriage is perfect), so I know these ideals are possible, if rare, and they are not achieved without work and close sharing and trust on both sides. To come even close to these ideals is a true gift from God.

Edited July 31, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Sarah147]

Amazing. Thank you so much for your explaining.

There is something about the whole fleshy part that makes it a challenge for me to see it in entire holiness, but hopefully I'll grow more.

It sounds like it really brings people deeper within themselves, more in-tune. And I can see what you were saying about how in being more open with your spouse, you are with God. And that in being accepted by a spouse, you understand better God's total acceptance.

The thing that is hard for me to understand is, with such incredible intimacy between spouses, how do they keep God first place, above their spouse? With such a oneness, it's got to be a challenge.

There was a program on the 700 Club cbn.com about couples that pray together, especially before making love together. It was incredible to hear how much closer it brought them. I guess that is a way of keeping God first place, and really making love union a holy experience.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' date='30 July 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1280549906' post='2150138']
Amazing. Thank you so much for your explaining.

There is something about the whole fleshy part that makes it a challenge for me to see it in entire holiness, but hopefully I'll grow more.

It sounds like it really brings people deeper within themselves, more in-tune. And I can see what you were saying about how in being more open with your spouse, you are with God. And that in being accepted by a spouse, you understand better God's total acceptance.

The thing that is hard for me to understand is, with such incredible intimacy between spouses, how do they keep God first place, above their spouse? With such a oneness, it's got to be a challenge.

There was a program on the 700 Club cbn.com about couples that pray together, especially before making love together. It was incredible to hear how much closer it brought them. I guess that is a way of keeping God first place, and really making love union a holy experience.
[/quote]

You're welcome.

I think it takes a lot of women some time to get used to the whole idea of sexual intercourse, and to learn how to feel free enough to just "let go." The things I was talking about were mostly ideals. Sex is something to work on, but even "practice" can be fun!

The whole idea of marriage is a paradox. You do have an incredible intimacy with your spouse, but you are still yourself, too. You're not a different person at your job, etc. Plus, even with the intimacy (or maybe because of it) spouses have a unique ability to get on your nerves (because, for example, your spouse's behavior in public reflects on you). Even with the intimacy with your spouse, your relationship with God is still all your own (even if you share it with your spouse sometimes).

Plus, spouses have a way of keeping our feet on the ground, and not constantly in the clouds with the ecstacy of love. So, some of your prayers might be, "God, I love X, but why did you give me a husband who leaves his dirty socks on the floor, or who drinks out of the orange juice container without using a glass, or never remembers to take out the garbage?" Marriage is wonderful, but anyone who expects it to be romantic 100% of the time is in for a rude shock. There will probably be times when your prayer to God is, "How could you have let me be stupid enough to marry such a jerk?" So, I wouldn't worry too much. On your own, you will need God as much, or maybe even more, after you get married. (On the other hand, women are as close to perfect as humans can get, and most of all, extremely intelligent, but unfortunately many men forget this sometimes. We have to be patient, both with husbands, and small children. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. LOL)

Edited July 31, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Chiara_]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='29 July 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1280425049' post='2149514']

And also, I can say from experience that religious life doesn't destroy genuine friendships. Yeah, you can't necessarily call whomever you want whenever you want. Most orders you are only allowed to write, and that also is only at certain times (However, truthfully, often it is very difficult to find the time to write even that often.) Conversations don't maintain a friendship... in fact, oftentimes they damage them in subtle ways because there is a lot of self-love in most of our speech, even when we are talking about very good things. LOVE maintains a friendship, if there was a true friendship in the first place, and you do not have to talk often to love someone. Our relationship with God usually grows most in silence, and so, actually does our relationship with others. Silence purifies love in a way that talking really can't.

Religious life has a particular way in allowing that to happen, (and keep in mind, ALL religious to varying degrees accept the limitations on their correspondence, including priests who are religious) but actually, EVERY vocation has some way in which it purifies our relationships and detaches us from others. Diocesan priests don't technically have those restrictions (But they don't live in community like religious do either-- they do make many sacrifices that religious in community do not. Each one has sacrifices that others don't but they all also have great joys which vastly outweigh the sacrifices when they are called to that vocation). And even by the nature of the diocesan priesthood, and as busy as it is, they probably don't have as much time to talk to their loved ones as you probably think that they do.

[/quote]

I moved away from my hometown where my best friend still lives 8 years ago. We've kept the ffriendship going by keeping in touch with phone calls, and visits in the summer and Christmas break when we're not away at school. We don't always talk every week, especially during the school year, so we'd be able to handle not constantly talking if I were in a convent. It's just the extremity of the restrictions - If I was limited to two calls a month, and some of those times we might not even be able to get ahold of each other...it would be a distraction from the religious life and we'd probably lose touch. I don't expect, or need, to be able to call every day, but I just think I should have a bit of freedom. If I was devoting too much attention to it the superior is there to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. I know priests are busy. But they aren't limited to two calls a month. If they want to get home after their day of work they could call their mom or their friend if they wanted to. Hopefully there are some sisters' orders that aren't liberal that do have a bit more freedom.

[Chiara_]

[quote name='ksterling' date='29 July 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1280425332' post='2149516']
Chiara:

You raise a number of different issues here - some of which I've given a great deal of thought to. You have a vocation to religious life or you don't. If you do, you will find that the rewards outweigh the sacrifices. If the converse is true - and I think that's what discernment is all about - you probably don't have a religious vocation and need to discern what other paths you are more inclined to follow. I have 2 sisters who are both married. One of my sisters is divorced and I was present in the delivery room when her son was born. Trust me, the last thing on her mind was a doctor seeing her "not looking her best." The reward of a healthy child brought great happiness to all of us (even in the midst of a messy divorce) and I can tell you for sure, my sister didn't give a fig that it was "undignified." I think you are worrying unnecessarily - neither of my sisters would have chosen not to have their children because of the unpleasant process of birth. As for having one a year, almost no one outside the Duggars does that. I don't want to digress into birth control, but I do a lot of work in my parish and the largest family has 5 kids - most have 2 - so almost no one is following the church's rules on birth control.

As I have discerned a vocation to religious life, I, too have wondered whether I would be able to go through life not having a child of my own. I am lucky in that both my sisters have children so my mom, who is a widow, is not deprived of grandchildren. It would be much harder if I was an only child and my becoming a sister meant that she would have no grandchildren. So we are back to weighing the rewards vesus the sacrifice and whether you find the sacrifice is too difficult. For me, yes, I would have liked to have a baby of my own someday (although I have friends who would tell you that I'm not very maternal.) But I feel like God has called me to religious life and I must trust in him to give me the grace to persevere, even in the face of difficulties. If I can't then maybe I'm mistaken in my vocation. There are many beauties to religious life but I don't think anyone will tell you it's easy and on this particular subject I think it is very difficult. This is one reason why I am searching for a community with strong bonds of sisterhood and women my own age - we can help one another face this and other difficulties of life.

As to the freedom of priests - I kind of agree with you to a point. Priests in orders face the same difficulties as sisters. Diocesan priests face some of the same and more - they don't have the strongs bonds of community to sustain them. My SD has told me on several occasions that he sometimes regrets not having joined an order - he says his life is lonely. I have said on this forum that I worry about being treated like an adult. Here is where I think priests have more freedom, at least in formation. I understand that a postulant can't go calling her friends or emailing them every day. How can you discern a lifetime decision if you are constantly distracted? But I think you should be able to receive letters and write to friends. This is an issue that has made me not consider the Nashville Dominicans.

If you truly are ashamed to have sex or go through childbirth, as you say, I think you have other issues you need to address before you can think about discernment. These are normal human activities given to us by God - no reason for shame. I don't mean to be critical - I just want you to find the path that's right for you and to address the roadblocks that seem to prevent you from doing that. Good luck - I will be praying for you.
[/quote]

I had written a response and pm deleted it when I tried to post...but the main things of it were that if I got married I'd probably be having a lot of kids because I'd follow the Church's teaching on birth control. I've expressed my fear of childbirth to my mom, and her response was similar to yours, that it's worth it to have the baby. I'm sure I'd realize this once I actually had my child...I'm just apprenhensive about it now. I am probably just thinking about it too much.
I wasn't consdidering the Nashville Dominicans for reasons besides the correspondence issue. I don't know much about other communities' restrictions on it. I'm pretty interested in the MICM's... I haven't seen anything on their website about it.
thanks for your post

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Chiara_' date='31 July 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1280591571' post='2150258']
I moved away from my hometown where my best friend still lives 8 years ago. We've kept the ffriendship going by keeping in touch with phone calls, and visits in the summer and Christmas break when we're not away at school. We don't always talk every week, especially during the school year, so we'd be able to handle not constantly talking if I were in a convent. It's just the extremity of the restrictions - If I was limited to two calls a month, and some of those times we might not even be able to get ahold of each other...it would be a distraction from the religious life and we'd probably lose touch. I don't expect, or need, to be able to call every day, but I just think I should have a bit of freedom. If I was devoting too much attention to it the superior is there to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. I know priests are busy. But they aren't limited to two calls a month. If they want to get home after their day of work they could call their mom or their friend if they wanted to. Hopefully there are some sisters' orders that aren't liberal that do have a bit more freedom.
[/quote]

One thought: When comparing religious Sisters to diocesan priests, in a way, you are comparing apples and oranges.

A closer comparison would be between relgious Sisters and religious brothers.

Most priests are diocesan priests who do not belong to a religious Order. I don't know if Priests who belong to religious Orders have stricter rules, I've never read many details about male Orders.

We've already mentioned that it does appear that men in religious life have more freedom than women, probably dating back to not that long ago when it was felt women needed to be more protected than men.

Is it fair? No. Is life fair? No. Is anyone forced to become a religious Sister? No.

You also lose some freedom when you get married, and you lose even more when you have children.

Even if you're single, you probably hold a job that limits your freedom. And, even in executive jobs, there might be no limits on personal calls, but you also are often too busy to make them.

If you have health problems, that limits your freedom and options.

I've thought about this before, and felt frustrated by it, just like you. But, from what I figured, it wasn't worth my energy past a certain point, because unless you are filthy rich and single, you're going to have to answer to somebody some of the time. And, apparently very rich people have their problems, although I have no plans to waste any time feeling sorry for them. I have no desire to be Paris Hilton--her "freedom" doesn't appear to have made her either stable or intelligent.

Edited July 31, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Chiara_]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='29 July 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1280425381' post='2149517']



If it makes you feel any better, I wasn't comfortable with the idea of sex until I was in a serious relationship with my husband.
[/quote]

That actually does help... I haven't been in love with a man though I have dated. I think part of what scares me is how I see the majority of people going half crazy for sex. Even at my Christian college I've heard of stuff happening, and on tv it's everywhere, so it seems to me that I am abnormal for being repulsed by the idea of sex with someone you aren't married to, because everybody else seems to be pretty comfortable with it. Hopefully, if I fell in love with a man, I'd be able to understand and not be ashamed of it. I do know, in my mind, that sex is not bad within marriage and is actualy good. There's just part of my heart that isn't completely understanding it yet.

I haven't dated in about a year and a bit because of discerning. I dated a guy at the beginning of my discernment, and felt odd about it, so we broke it off. I had fallen in love with Jesus and didn't feel comfortable dating. He was my first love...so I didn't fall in love with a guy and thus don't have that experience which I hope would allow me to understand loving someone enough for sex. I'm still discerning, but I want to try seriously dating someone that I actualy have feelings for. The guy that I dated at the beginning of discernment and i have kept in touch..and he wants to come visit though I live several states away. I'm going to give it a try. I'm also going to make myself contact these sisters...because I can't go forward with either option unless I have explored both somewhat in order to know which I am called to.

[Sarah147]

RE: post 43

It REALLY transforms my view of sexual union as I look at what you mention... The total giving of self on all levels -- mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically. Just looking at the physical seems animalistic and can seem bad. But when I especially understand better the emotional and spiritual, it takes it to another level. There's a commitment and a giving involved there. A close bonding, a show of affection, a wanting to know each other better. And being in marriage, and free of contreception barriers, there is trust and vulnerability, and it says "all of me is yours, for all that God wills." It's hard to get out of mind all the junk that's out in the secular, all the abuses to sexuality, and to see it in the pure, holy way. And in depth, in the emotional and spiritual. I agree with you both about seeing it differently when serious in love with someone, because then you see it beyond the physical, you see it as a love giving, and on the emotional and spiritual level. It's amazing how you can see the reality of two becoming one: they experience the same experiences physically, emotionally, spiritually.


RE: post 49

It is wise to stop dating while in religious discernment. It's either courting for marriage, or come-and-see for religious orders.

There's a story I'm reminded of:

I'm not sure where the story is, but I had read a vocation story online of a young woman that felt God was calling her to the religious life. She reasoned that since she had never dated, that she didn't know if she was called to marriage, so she tried going out with a guy. I remember in the story, she said that she went to Mass with this man, and as she was walking back to the pew where he was, I think after receiving communion, she felt Jesus tell her that He didn't like her giving her attention to this man. So she realized her foolishness and what God wanted, and she ended that and got serious about her religious vocation.

Wow, the Lord sure is serious about His love for us, and wants ALL of your heart!

Edited August 1, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Chiara_' date='31 July 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1280592666' post='2150262']
I had written a response and pm deleted it when I tried to post...but the main things of it were that if I got married I'd probably be having a lot of kids because I'd follow the Church's teaching on birth control. I've expressed my fear of childbirth to my mom, and her response was similar to yours, that it's worth it to have the baby. I'm sure I'd realize this once I actually had my child...I'm just apprenhensive about it now.
[/quote]
Well, following the Church's teachings doesn't necessarily mean you'd have lots of kids. NFP can be used to postpone pregnancy if there's a just reason. And some women simply don't have a return to fertility for quite a while due to breastfeeding (some do, every woman is different)

[quote name='Chiara_' date='31 July 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1280593627' post='2150265']
That actually does help... I haven't been in love with a man though I have dated. I think part of what scares me is how I see the majority of people going half crazy for sex. Even at my Christian college I've heard of stuff happening, and on tv it's everywhere, so it seems to me that I am abnormal for being repulsed by the idea of sex with someone you aren't married to, because everybody else seems to be pretty comfortable with it. Hopefully, if I fell in love with a man, I'd be able to understand and not be ashamed of it. I do know, in my mind, that sex is not bad within marriage and is actualy good. There's just part of my heart that isn't completely understanding it yet.
[/quote]
I understand. I was there, too. My husband and I started dating after I graduated from college, and during his final semester, so he was 22 and I was one month shy of 22. We got engaged when we were 23/nearly 23. Married later that year.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Maggie' date='30 July 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1280523494' post='2149995']
But I think regardless of where God calls you, prior to accepting that call it would be a good idea to get a better handle on your sexuality. While everyone approaches first-time sex with a little bit of anxiety (only natural) it's not healthy emotionally or theologically to be so afraid of it that it affects your vocational discernment. What you said about giving birth being humiliating (having doctors look at you down there) suggests that maybe you're not too comfortable with your reproductive organs, how they look, and how they function. You're not alone - many young women who are brought up to be holy and pure unintentionally absorb negative or fearful messages about their bodies. "Down there" becomes intimidating, or even repulsive. The fear and anxiety surrounding the organs and sex itself often leads to a painful condition called vaginismus, where sexual activity itself becomes painful or impossible (the woman is convinced, consciously or subconsciously, that it will be painful, so her pelvic floor muscles contract, and in a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's painful, when really it shouldn't be). Luckily this condition can usually be cured.

Of course I'm sure you know that every part of your body was made and formed by God and all of it is beautiful and none of it is shameful. Maybe this is a bit too explicit, I trust it will be edited if neccesary, but I would suggest either going to visit an OBGYN if you haven't already (women should start going regardless of sexual activity at age 21) and discuss how you feel about sex and pregnancy with them. It's hard because there aren't too many doctors who have a Catholic attitude about sex. But if he/she is a good doctor, they will be respectful of your faith and your choices. They may suggest the use of a hand mirror at home, or refer you to another doctor who could help you develop really good feelings about how God made your body and how it's designed to work. You do NOT have to have an exam if you don't want to.

[/quote]

Awesome post, Maggie.

And I really don't think it's off topic at all - in fact, I think this is the most important aspect of Chiara's post that needs to be addressed.

Whether you're called to religious life or marriage, BEFORE you can decide either way, you must have a correct understanding of human sexuality. Our sex organs are not "bad" or "dirty" or "embarrassing." That is a huge hurdle that many people have to overcome - I myself had to overcome a bit of that myself. But that obviously has deeply colored your decision making process when it comes to vocations, and that's something I really hope you could maybe get some help overcoming. God made us the way we are for a reason, and we really have no reason to be ashamed of His handiwork. You are NOT abnormal in being repulsed or embarrassed - many young people share that fear with you! But honestly, it's something I would recommend getting some help for, and especially praying about.

In today's sex-saturated culture, unfortunately there are many "wrong" ways to "become comfortable with your body." That can be a turn-off to devout Catholics (as it should) but it shouldn't cause a "knee-jerk" reaction in the opposite direction, either. Of course there is a kind of "modesty" that is necessary (which is why we clothe ourselves!) and for the first (numerous!) times, sex between spouses can be embarrassing or you may feel bashful about it - you are unveiling yourself in front of another person, giving yourself completely to them -- yeah, that's a big deal and it sure can make you feel vulnerable! But it's all a process, and in time one grows more comfortable with it, if it is indeed your vocation. And remember, that's the way God Himself designed it!

I would echo Maggie's suggestion of seeing an OB/GYN. Every woman is recommended to make their first visit around the time they turn 18, and it could honestly help you feel a little more comfortable with your body. Of course, it is only a suggestion! I can understand your trepidation about having doctors see you like that - I felt very weird about it for many years and that's part of why I put off my first OB/GYN appointment a lot longer than I should have. If it helps any, try to put doctors in a whole different category. They're there solely for our health - they're not there to make judgments, they're there to make sure we are healthy. They're used to seeing hundreds, if not thousands of people every year. There is no sexual aspect to their exams at all - it is purely for our well-being, and truly, it's a God-given gift that we have doctors to help us. If you feel more comfortable seeing a woman doctor for those types of things, request it (COUNTLESS women I know prefer women doctors!). Also make sure you have a doctor you feel comfortable talking to. And it's normal to feel a bit "violated" after an exam! As time goes by, you'll probably find you get a lot less anxious about it. Remember, although you shouldn't have to feel so uncomfortable about your body that way, you are not "abnormal" for feeling that way -- it is a common problem that countless other people share with you, many of which have overcome it just fine. You're not alone!

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Maggie' date='30 July 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1280523494' post='2149995']
Slightly, slightly off topic.

I hope what I'm going to say isn't considered "inappropriate" or scandalous.

But I think regardless of where God calls you, prior to accepting that call it would be a good idea to get a better handle on your sexuality. While everyone approaches first-time sex with a little bit of anxiety (only natural) it's not healthy emotionally or theologically to be so afraid of it that it affects your vocational discernment. What you said about giving birth being humiliating (having doctors look at you down there) suggests that maybe you're not too comfortable with your reproductive organs, how they look, and how they function. You're not alone - many young women who are brought up to be holy and pure unintentionally absorb negative or fearful messages about their bodies. "Down there" becomes intimidating, or even repulsive. The fear and anxiety surrounding the organs and sex itself often leads to a painful condition called vaginismus, where sexual activity itself becomes painful or impossible (the woman is convinced, consciously or subconsciously, that it will be painful, so her pelvic floor muscles contract, and in a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's painful, when really it shouldn't be). Luckily this condition can usually be cured.

Of course I'm sure you know that every part of your body was made and formed by God and all of it is beautiful and none of it is shameful. Maybe this is a bit too explicit, I trust it will be edited if neccesary, but I would suggest either going to visit an OBGYN if you haven't already (women should start going regardless of sexual activity at age 21) and discuss how you feel about sex and pregnancy with them. It's hard because there aren't too many doctors who have a Catholic attitude about sex. But if he/she is a good doctor, they will be respectful of your faith and your choices. They may suggest the use of a hand mirror at home, or refer you to another doctor who could help you develop really good feelings about how God made your body and how it's designed to work. You do NOT have to have an exam if you don't want to.

<----- End slightly off topic, blush-worthy post! I hope I haven't offended anybody, I just felt like I had to speak up!!
[/quote]
It doesn't necessarily have to be an OBGYN, either...some family practice doctors do pelvic exams, as well, so if you have a doctor you already feel somewhat comfortable with, they may do those exams, and it might be less intimidating.

[Sarah147]

Ahhhh!! Fr. Landry is on youtube! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/woot.gif[/img]


He did a series on Theology of the Body, which may be helpful to Chiara.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8H5BWVZl_Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8H5BWVZl_Y[/url]

[Chiara_]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='29 July 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1280436486' post='2149620']
Dear Chiara,

I've had feelings similar to yours in regards to communication restrictions in religious life.

One thing that was helpful to me was finding out that there is more than 1 approach to "outside" relationships. I know a Sister in a habit wearing, solemn-vow taking community. She makes "phone dates" so that she can catch up with her college friends. She uses email to keep in touch. She writes as many letters and she likes to whomever she likes. Whether it is for better or worse, her community chooses to make Sisters more responsible for themselves and their own behavior. This Sister friend of mine has to ask herself: am I giving too much time to this? Is this an appropriate amount of contact? etc. etc. There have been times she has felt it would be easier if a Superior told her what to do. But her particular community has chosen this path ....

I guess my point is, different communities embrace different restrictions, so don't rule out a religious vocation just because you have anxiety about a particular restriction ...


On the other hand .....


I was told once that there are two kinds of people who try religious life: those who go in to give, and those who go in to take. Those who go into religious life with a heart ready to make sacrifices have a better go of it than those who go because it will make them happy. If you cultivate a spirit of sacrifice in your daily life, you'll see as you go that it will become easier to make them ...
[/quote]

Thanks for your post. I'm not ruling out the religious life based on this one thing as I do feel drawn towards it. I just want to be very cautious, because I tend to jump into things based on their good aspects without considering the negatives. That's what happened when I transferred to Steubenville...and ended up leaving. So I'm trying to keep myself realistic, and consider how I'd truly do in these communities based on temperament and personality. I'm glad to hear of your friend's community - that sounds much more reasonable and it helps to hear that such views are out there.

[Chiara_]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='29 July 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1280448860' post='2149702']
I don't think your concerns are selfish, petty, and stupid. If you have concerns, it's much better to look them in the face, than to deny them because we are "supposed to be more mature than that." Maybe we are supposed to be mature all the time, but I don't know anyone who is mature every minute of their life.

You've brought up a couple of different concerns. You've gotten some excellent replies to your post, so I will try not to repeat too much of what others have said, and try to add a little from my own experiences.

First your close friendship. You didn't say how old you are, but I'm going to guess under 21, or younger. (If I'm wrong, please forgive me.) I don't know if others had this experience, but when I was in high school, I felt like I needed to spend a lot of time on the phone and talk to my friends constantly. (I'm giving away my age a little by confessing that, when I was in high school there were no cellphones, no email, no text messaging etc.--but close friends still generally felt like they had to talk to each other constantly.) That changed when I went away to college. Because we do have cellphones, text messaging, email, etc., now I think this goes on longer for many people--well into adulthood.

But, as others have said, over the years, things happen to our close friendships to change them. We get a boyfriend and want to spend time with him--and eventually we might get married. We go away to college, and even if we go to the same college as our close friends, we take different classes, have different majors, and we can't talk to our best friend every minute. And, you know what? It's okay. Not being in touch every minute or having your lives intertwined doesn't hurt a real friendship. A real friendship can withstand changes. And, whether we want to our not, as we get older, our relationships with friends are gong to change, and mostly it's okay. Part of growing up is being a whole person and being able to be content not being with someone else every minute. Even when you're in love with someone and get married, after the honeymoon you don't spend every minute together, and it's okay.

And, one thing I have also found from experience is that when circumstances have caused me to not be able to be in constant touch with a very close friend, it didn't hurt the friendship. With a REAL friend, you may not see them for a year or two, but when you do see them, you simply take up where you left off.

As others have said, relgious communities are different in how much contact professed Sisters are able to have with the outside world. So, part of discernment would be finding out the community's rules about this. Unlike some others here, I have not been in religious life, but from what I have read, most communities do have some limitation on outside contact during the years of formation. However, again, the specifics of the rules differ from community to community. One of the goals of religious life is learning to depend on Christ and your Sisters, as they become your family. One of the ways this happens is to take away for a time some of the things you did in the past, so that you have to depend on Christ and your new Sisters.

As for feeling frustrated at the freedom priests seem to have versus what some religious Sisters/nuns have, remember, as others have said, that in many communities the stricter rules only apply to the first few years of formation, and are not as strict for professed Sisters. When you look at priests, you are looking at men who are already "professed" as it were. But, these men are priests after spending years in seminary. And, if you look at the rules of various seminaries, most of them have at least some limitations on how much contact seminarians can have with the outside world, and depending on the seminary, the rules that apply in the first few years could well be just as strict as those for religious Sisters.

It would NOT be a good reason to go into religious life just because you are scared or repulsed by the idea of sex and pregnancy. Many young women don't find the idea of sex attractive as a concept, but as one poster said, when you find the right man, ideally your feelings will change. When you are with a man with whom you have vowed to share your whole life, yes, sex is very private and personal, but it also increases your bond, because you are sharing your whole self with him. And, it isn't humiliating--it's fun, and makes you feel very loved.

One VERY strong word of warning: If you find yourself loving someone so much that you want to marry him and share your life with him, but the idea of sex with him is still repulsive, even after you have had some physical contact with him, get counseling, and DON'T MARRY HIM if you still feel repulsed by sex. A man deserves a wife who loves him in every way, including sexually, or your marriage will suffer. My background is no secret on Phatmass. I am divorced because my ex-husband decided he wanted to lead a homosexual lifestyle. I had NO idea and was totally devasted, especially since we'd been married 13 years. And, even worse, I found out later that my ex was having second thoughts even before we were married, but never told me. The first time my ex and I had sex, his response was, "Is that it?" There may be some women who take time to get used to sex (although they are not repulsed--and they WANT to enjoy it more), that is not the reaction of a truly heterosexual male. The reaction of a man to having sex for the first time is normally very positive (to put it mildly). But, I was too sexually naive to know this. If he had been honest, my ex and I would never have married, or my ex and I could have separated and divorced after only a short time being married, and it would have caused less damage. That is why I'm so adamant about this.

As I understand it, most women in religious life find men attractive, but they have found a man (Christ) who is the only one they want to marry. They are not running away from sex but toward Christ.

As for pregnancy, again, I don't have children (a long, very personal story that I won't share, but the bottom line is that I couldn't). But, although many women are apprehensive about pregnancy, most married women are excited to have children. After all, they will be bringing into the world a new life that springs from the very special love they share with their husband. However, there is a big difference between apprehension, and fear or the feeling that being pregnant is humiliating. (If you have a health issue that could make pregnancy dangerous for you, this is something for you and your future husband, should you have one, need to talk about BEFORE you get married.) My friends have had various experiences with pregnancy--it was easy for some, difficult for others--but virtually universally they forgot about the pain (or decided it was well worth it) to have this child that represents the bond they share with their husband. And, you won't go through pregnancy alone. If your husband knows your apprehensions, he can help you with them. You might want to have a woman doctor. And, nowadays, there are so many options for delivery etc that weren't available before, that delivery is less dangerous and less painful than in past. If privacy is a concern, let your doctor know, and ask to have visitors to the birthing room be limited to as few as possible. (If it's a large teaching hospital, ask to have no medical students, interns, residents etc come by to check on you. Ask to have only women care for you, if possible.) Home birth is a possibility, although in a hospital, ways to help pain or deal with any problems are closer at hand. If necessary, get counseling. I have never heard anyone (well, except my mother, but that's another long story) say that they were sorry they had children.


Single people have friends. And, I don't know whether you have family or not, but they usually have family. My sister was thoughtful enough to have two children who look like they could be mine and I ADORE them. In many ways they are the most important people in the world to me, even more than my parents and siblings. And, if you choose some kind of consecrated life, either as a consecrated virgin or as a lay associate of a religious Order, you will have LOTS of friends, and true sisters in religion.

I don't know the position of the Catholic church on this, but I have had women friends who found themselves unmarried at 40, but wanting a child, so adopted a child on their own, usually a hard-to-place child. You'll want to make sure you have good male friends so that the child will have "honorary fathers" as well as a mother. Adoption by two parents is better, but adoption by a single parent is better than being shunted between foster homes.

[b]You are who you are. Let God help you to discern the life for you that isn't "the least bad of several bad alternatives," but the one that genuinely will make you happy. Obviously, you don't know yet. That's fine. Just keep listening to God. It's fine to rant--we all do, but if you find yourself consistently unhappy, get counseling. My ex is a clinical psychologist, and I strongly believe that if you find the right counselor for you, it can be extremely helpful. And, nowadays, it's not lying on a couch, or making a commitment for years (unless that is what you want).[/b]

I genuinely wish you the best. Some people who are older wish they were young again. Not me. Except for my body, health, and energy, you couldn't pay me to be 18 or 21 again. It's a wonderful time, but it's also a confusing time. The good news is that as time passes, you will get to know yourself better, you will feel more comfortable with who you are, and it usually becomes a little clearer what you want and what will make you (and God) happiest.

Keep posting. We'll all be praying for you, and will support you, whatever "vocation" God calls you to.
[/quote]
Thank you...I do want to address these issues while still discerning. I am 21 for the record. (a young 21.) I feel like I am pretty reasonable and stable when it comes to keeping in touch with my friends...my best friend and Ihave been best friends for 13 years, 8 of which I have lived about an hour away from my hometown. We talk more often in the summer, and do as many visits as possible, but we're not constantly texting like many high school and even other college students today. I actually find texting kind of annoying and tedious and I'd much rather talk on the phone. But yeah...our friendship has definitely withstood changes and is very strong and being far apart has made us even closer. I just fear being in a convent and having super strict limitations. I know it would stress me out to have such strict limits because I'dworry about whether we'd miss each other during the calling opportunities...and then lose touch. It seems likethis issue is going to vary with every community, so I'll talk about it with ther superiors. I remember someone on here saying that their superior understood how it was to have close friends and was sympathetic.

I am hoping that, as you said, my feelings about sex would change if I found the right man. Part of what is scaring me I think is this mindset of having sex with people you aren't married to and may not even be in love with...that makes me want to hide. Hopefully if I fell in love, and was married, it would be different because that person would not be demeaning me in that way.

Thank you for your warning...if I did fall in love and still felt repulsed I wouldn't get married, both so as not to hurt him and so as not to place myself in a life which would be painful for me. I do find men attractive; I just don't find sex attractive.

Thanks for your advice about pregnancy too. I wouldn't be embarrassed to walk around with a pregnant belly; I think it's a very special and beautiful state. I'd just be embarrased by all the necessary doctor things and the birth. But that did help somewhat - I'd definitely not want anyone in the room except my husband and mom. I feel bad leaving my dad out but I wouldn't want him to see me undressed during the birth.

I bolded that one paragraph because I appreciate it (and your post) very much. I'm trying to slow down and explore options so I don't make a mistake. Again, thank you very much.

Also a question for anyone: If you have been recently in counseling are communities less apt to accept you?

[Chiara_]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' date='31 July 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1280628332' post='2150396']
RE: post 43

It REALLY transforms my view of sexual union as I look at what you mention... The total giving of self on all levels -- mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically. Just looking at the physical seems animalistic and can seem bad. But when I especially understand better the emotional and spiritual, it takes it to another level. There's a commitment and a giving involved there. A close bonding, a show of affection, a wanting to know each other better. And being in marriage, and free of contreception barriers, there is trust and vulnerability, and it says "all of me is yours, for all that God wills." It's hard to get out of mind all the junk that's out in the secular, all the abuses to sexuality, and to see it in the pure, holy way. And in depth, in the emotional and spiritual. I agree with you both about seeing it differently when serious in love with someone, because then you see it beyond the physical, you see it as a love giving, and on the emotional and spiritual level. It's amazing how you can see the reality of two becoming one: they experience the same experiences physically, emotionally, spiritually.


RE: post 49

It is wise to stop dating while in religious discernment. It's either courting for marriage, or come-and-see for religious orders.

There's a story I'm reminded of:

I'm not sure where the story is, but I had read a vocation story online of a young woman that felt God was calling her to the religious life. She reasoned that since she had never dated, that she didn't know if she was called to marriage, so she tried going out with a guy. I remember in the story, she said that she went to Mass with this man, and as she was walking back to the pew where he was, I think after receiving communion, she felt Jesus tell her that He didn't like her giving her attention to this man. So she realized her foolishness and what God wanted, and she ended that and got serious about her religious vocation.

Wow, the Lord sure is serious about His love for us, and wants ALL of your heart!
[/quote]

Thanks for your posts! I'm sorry, somehow I missed this one. I think I've heard this story before, I think it was at Steubenville? I don't know...I just think it would be smart to try dating someone that I actually really like before deciding on a vocation. Which isn't really the mindset I used to have, but that's why I stopped dating for almostt years.