Gregorian Chant

[jeffpugh]

From [url="http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2010/07/gregorian-chant-nobody-really-likes-it.html"]The Hermeneutic of Continuity:[/url]


[quote]
As he points out, the more sophisticated defenders of the pop music played in Church will argue that the postconciliar liturgical reform called for the active participation of the laity, and that liturgical music should be accessible and easily understood so that the laity could join in and play their rightful part in the worship of God.
[/quote]

Read the whole story [url="http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2010/07/gregorian-chant-nobody-really-likes-it.html"]here[/url].

[CatherineM]

I used to like listening to it when I was having trouble sleeping.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='01 August 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1280686166' post='2150533']
I used to like listening to it when I was having trouble sleeping.
[/quote]
Awesome!

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
I sing it when I am furious. It's calming[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/annoyed.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img] see?

I also sing the Jesus Prayer, but it is Cyrillic chant.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='01 August 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1280695616' post='2150558']
JMJ
I sing it when I am furious. It's calming[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/annoyed.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img] see?

I also sing the Jesus Prayer, but it is Cyrillic chant.
[/quote]
On a similar note, I've heard that there "used" to be vocations in writing in certain modes because of a certain level of scholarly work music takes. Sometimes I find melodies in mode I. Maybe that's where my vocation is? I also like the Jesus Prayer. I would like to learn the setting you speak of.

[Tridenteen]

[media]http://www.lovetobecatholic.com/video_783_The_Jesus_Prayer_(of_the_Heart).html[/media]
JMJ
Here it is. I listened to it a few times and converted it to modern notation. The polyphonic part was confusing at first. It goes from 2 voices to 3 then back to 2. But then I figured it out. The words were not as confusing as I thought either!

Edited August 1, 2010 by Tridenteen

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
darn. it wouldn't embed

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

No, we all hate Gregorian chant. That's why the newest "pop stars" are groups singing Gregorian chant and a group of nuns was just signed to Lady Gaga's record label. Gregorian chant has never had such popularity. So, obviously, that means it is meaningless to us and we all hate it and it's not relevant.

Just goes to show that not all "wise" people are wise about EVERYTHING. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img]

BTW--IMHO, Gregorian chant is providing the Catholic church with some of the strongest witness to non-Catholics that the Church has had in years.

Edited August 1, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='01 August 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1280696473' post='2150570']
No, we all hate Gregorian chant. That's why the newest "pop stars" are groups singing Gregorian chant and a group of nuns was just signed to Lady Gaga's record label. Gregorian chant has never had such popularity. So, obviously, that means it is meaningless to us and we all hate it and it's not relevant.
[/quote]

Since we allow the world to choose for us, and we often forget we are supposed to be In the world, not Of it.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='01 August 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1280696768' post='2150573']
Since we allow the world to choose for us, and we often forget we are supposed to be In the world, not Of it.
[/quote]

Sorry, I'm missing your point. You did realize that the sentences of mine you quoted were sarcastic? Which I tried to make clear in the next sentence. Just as the title of SMM's original post was sarcastic.

Also, just because something is popular right now doesn't make it unholy and wrong. Sometimes "the world" gets it right. Not often enough, but sometimes.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you in any way, I just wasn't sure what you were trying to say.

Edited August 1, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[sistersintigo]

Speaking as a trained musician: Nobody likes LEARNING HOW to read the stuff at the beginning, I can tell you that.
I'm still barely literate, myself, in that wonky old notation. I can't write it down or copy it, and I certainly can't sight-read the stuff. To use a metaphor of notation with alphabet, I can't hardly spell in plainchant.
No, I don't sing in a Schola or anything. I have a casual friend, however, who leads a Schola, and I envy him. He is now at the point where the literacy learning and practice are under his belt. Now that he knows what he is doing with regards to the ink on the page, and now that he has a Schola of other men who can sing unison, he can actually get past the forbidding notation that shuts the chant away from the rest of us, and thoroughly enjoy pouring himself heart and soul into those plainchant tones. I don't know if my friend's Schola will ever make a recording or compete with the Lady Gaga labelmates. They aren't professional, they are parochial and proud of it, and I am proud of them.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='01 August 2010 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1280697194' post='2150579']
Sorry, I'm missing your point. You did realize that the sentences of mine you quoted were sarcastic? Which I tried to make clear in the next sentence. Just as the title of SMM's original post was sarcastic.

Also, just because something is popular right now doesn't make it unholy and wrong. Sometimes "the world" gets it right. Not often enough, but sometimes.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you in any way, I just wasn't sure what you were trying to say.
[/quote]

Oh no, I know you were being sarcastic, I was merely adding/agreeing. : )

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='01 August 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1280696473' post='2150570']

BTW--IMHO, Gregorian chant is providing the Catholic church with some of the strongest witness to non-Catholics that the Church has had in years.
[/quote]
You are extremely savvy. Thinking on this, I'd be inclined to say that proper traditional Chant is one of the very best external witnesses to the Faith we can possibly give to 'outsiders'.

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
The girls choir at my church sings mostly gregorian chant, and I am actually able to figure it out and sight read it...which is kind of cool. Way easier than I thought. The other awesome part is that several gregorian chant peices eiher sound the same, or are based on different major/minor scales...which make it easier to sing!

[missionseeker]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zez3V19U9h4&feature=related[/media]

[Luigi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 August 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1280719655' post='2150741']
You are extremely savvy. Thinking on this, I'd be inclined to say that proper traditional Chant is one of the very best external witnesses to the Faith we can possibly give to 'outsiders'.
[/quote]

Personally, I consider the popularity of Gregorian chant (what was that album had had monks "floating" on the cover? They were Spanish or something, weren't they?) a kind of cultural tourism, the same as Japanese tourists traipsing up & down the aisles of Notre Dame Catherdral during Sunday Mass and taking pictures of Catholics-at-prayer. The vast majority of the people who buy the mass marketed titles don't know a thing about Gregorian chant, don't care to research it, don't bother to translate the words they listen to, or anything else. It's probably the same crowd that rushes out to buy The DaVinci Code. This crowd is too vacuous to be witnessed to.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Luigi' date='01 August 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1280722493' post='2150783']
Personally, I consider the popularity of Gregorian chant (what was that album had had monks "floating" on the cover? They were Spanish or something, weren't they?) a kind of cultural tourism, the same as Japanese tourists traipsing up & down the aisles of Notre Dame Catherdral during Sunday Mass and taking pictures of Catholics-at-prayer. The vast majority of the people who buy the mass marketed titles don't know a thing about Gregorian chant, don't care to research it, don't bother to translate the words they listen to, or anything else. It's probably the same crowd that rushes out to buy The DaVinci Code. This crowd is too vacuous to be witnessed to.
[/quote]
Dude, you're cynical.

[Luigi]

[quote name='missionseeker' date='02 August 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1280722438' post='2150782']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zez3V19U9h4&feature=related[/media]


[/quote]

This is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of cultural tourism - slickly produced, gas-generated torches, smoke machine, torn-paper windows, some arches and stairs, generic monastic outfits - this is no witness to anything excpet PBS (or its equivalent in Germany?). There's no religion happening here, there's no understanding, there's no prayer - it's all just a performance organized to put money in somebody pocket.

This is about as close to the true spirit of Gregorian chant as those dancing Irish chick fiddle players are to real Irish music.

[Luigi]

I know I post a lot of sarcastic remarks on Phatmass, but...

In all honesty, I respect Gregorian chant because of its liturgical history but I'm not at all fond of it.

1. I can't hear and understand the words most of the time.
2. Even if I have access to the lyrics, I can't understand the Latin most of the time.
3. I can't stand more than about three or four notes to a syllable (that applies to Whitney Houston, too), so I [i]really[/i] don't like pieces that put seventeen or twenty-six notes on each syllable of "Alleluia" or something. I've heard the Dies Irae, and that's better - I think most of it is one note per syllable.
4. The notation system is not impossible, but it is arcane. I'd be able to understand it if I had some classes in it I guess, but I already know the standard system and that's enough for me.
5. It does provide nice, floaty, ethereal background music for church if done by a well-rehearsed choir in a certain style of building, but there are precious few well-rehearsed choirs, and I don't go to many churches of that style anyway. And perhaps most importantly, I don't think that Gregorian chant - because of it's important liturgical history - should be reduced to church background music; I know it's important, it's a form of prayer, but it's a form of prayer that I don't understand at all and can't participate in.

[missionseeker]

(now for an actual post)

I think a large part of the problem is the false idea that "active participation" means singing every word and understanding it. We actively participate in God's goodness simply by existing. We actively participate in Mass just by being there. The point of the Mass is that you *can't* *ever* possibly comprehend it. It's not routine or familiar. It's incredible, beautiful and foreign.