St. Francis And The Sultan

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1282531569' post='2161766']
It's not watering down the Truth to present the Truth with love and charity. It's absolutely wrong to think, the harsher, the truer. We serve a God whose love is greater than His wrath. We have Good News for people, and it's a shame that many of them will never really hear it because we present it to them like it's Bad News. (Unless You Convert You're Going To Hell, Your Faith Tradition Is of the Devil, etc.) The awful thing is, when it's done like that, their rejection of Christ is our fault, not theirs. We are supposed to show them the face of Jesus and when instead we show them the ugly face of our own prejudices and shortcomings, and insist that same ugliness is the Truth, it's no wonder they reject Him.
[/quote]

Christ always presented the Truth with Love and Charity, so too did His Apostles, Disciples and Saints but they were for the most part all murdered by those that hated that Truth spoken with Love and Charity. Telling a homosexual that his acts are gravely sinful and could dåmn him to hell and not watering that down is Truth spoken with Love and Charity. Telling any sinner that grave sin can dåmn one to hell is Truth spoken with Love and Charity. The 'problem' is their not going to like hearing that, I will be accused of being uncharitable, and 'not a respecter of persons'.

Love and Charity is not political correctness but many today confuse the two. Both in the world or even sometimes in the Church with my brothers and sister of Christ, when I or others state those [u]same truths the same way[/u] Christ and His Saints have has gotten me labeled all sorts of hateful things. I know it will come from those outside the Church and I am not shocked by it. However I am most always shocked when it comes from fellow Catholics. The Truths that Mother Church has always taught seem now to even offend Catholics. That's sad.

I will continue to do as best as I can and follow the example of Christ, without submitting to political correctness or modernism. God bless.

Edited August 23, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Maggyie]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282532222' post='2161781']
Christ always presented the Truth with Love and Charity, so too did His Apostles, Disciples and Saints but they were for the most part all murdered by those that hated that Truth spoken with Love and Charity. Telling a homosexual that his acts are gravely sinful and could dåmn him to hell and not watering that down is Truth spoken with Love and Charity. Telling any sinner that grave sin can dåmn one to hell is Truth spoken with Love and Charity. The 'problem' is their not going to like hearing that, I will be accused of being uncharitable, and 'not a respecter of persons'.

Love and Charity is not political correctness but many today confuse the two. Both in the world or even sometimes in the Church with my brothers and sister of Christ, when I or others state those [u]sames truths the same way[/u] Christ's and His Saints have has gotten me labeled all sorts of hateful things. I know it will come from those outside the Church and I am not shocked by it. However I am most always shocked when it comes from fellow Catholics. The Truths that Mother Church has always taught seem now to even offend Catholics. That's sad.

I will continue to do as best as I can and follow the example of Christ, without submitting to political correctness or modernism. God bless.
[/quote]

It's true that many people think political correctness is charity... but I think it's quite likely that others confuse charity with political correctness!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1282532463' post='2161786']
It's true that many people think political correctness is charity... but I think it's quite likely that others confuse charity with political correctness!
[/quote]

I do not.

God Bless you dear sister in Christ.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1282531866' post='2161772']

My favorite motto is: Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi (what is okay for God is not okay for cows)
[/quote]

Mooooooooo

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1282531866' post='2161772']
My favorite motto is: Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi (what is okay for God is not okay for cows)
[/quote]

The last time I checked, Jupiter was not God.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' timestamp='1282532613' post='2161794']
The last time I checked, Jupiter was not God.
[/quote]

It's a figure of speech.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Resurrexi' timestamp='1282532613' post='2161794']
The last time I checked, Jupiter was not God.
[/quote]


You're kidding, right.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1282533190' post='2161821']
You're kidding, right.
[/quote]

No. The Latin version says [i]Jovi[/i], which she inaccurately translated as [i]God[/i]. [i]Jupiter[/i] / [i]Jovis[/i] (both are used) refers to the head of the Roman pantheon, not to the Supreme Being.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1282531866' post='2161772']
Seeing Christ in our fellow man means we should see other human beings as worthy of our service, deference and respect.

It is true that we should strive to be more Christ-like, as far as He was the perfect man.

But there are things Jesus did that we should not imitate, because besides being a man, He was also God.

For example ... we should not

speak to the Devil,
claim personal divinity,
assert authority over the law
judge whether a person has sufficient faith or not
etc.

Jesus did all of these things. He was Jesus. We should not do any of these things. We are not Jesus. It is a big deal when someone takes on part of Christ's divine power/authority for himself. That is what ordination does, gives a priest power to act in persona Christi. It is a very big deal, and even then the priest's ability to imitate Christ is circumscribed by the fact that he remains a mere human being and not God.[/quote]


Which is why I also said I follow the examples of His Apostles, Disciples, Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church. Unless they made themselves God I don't have anything to really worry about. Simply repeating the truths they taught and as Christ taught I will be fine. Repeating Truth as Christ stated Truth, thats what we're talking about here. I am not God. Christ is God and I can repeat that truth. I can say in reply to Satan "Get behind me Satan" I would not otherwise wish to have a convo with him. I have not judge anyones heart, only God can do that, and I can repeat that Truth. Also I've only repeated that by the act of grave sin can one be dåmned to hell, Christ taught that Truth and I can repeat that truth.


[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1282531866' post='2161772']My favorite motto is: Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi (what is okay for God is not okay for cows)
[/quote]

I am not a cow. I am a child of God a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I will do my best to repeat the same truths He stated. Even if it means being judged as uncharitable by the world or other Catholics.

God Bless

Edited August 23, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282533595' post='2161831']
I am not a cow.
[/quote]

Awesome quote.

[Lilllabettt]

I am a sheep. Baaaa.

But not the Lamb of God. There is only one of those, and I am not He.

Baaa.

[HisChildForever]

No one here has claimed to be God.

[KnightofChrist]

"For I have given you an example, that as I have done to you, so you do also." - Jesus Christ, only Son of the Living God

[dominicansoul]

[b][i]If obedience doesn't give you peace, it's because you're proud."[/i] - St Josemaria Escriva[/b]

[b]Personal Attacks[/b]
A post or comment that has nothing to do with the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people. This includes, but is not limited to, calling people "heretics" (used in a derogatory manner), "democrooks", etc.

[i]"Never reprimand anyone while you feel provoked over a fault that has been committed. Wait until the next day, or even longer. Then make your remonstrance calmly and with a purified intention. You'll gain more with an affectionate word than you ever would from three hours of quarreling. Control your temper."[/i] - St Josemaria Escriva
[size="7"][b]Negative Criticism of Other Religions[/b][/size]
[b]A post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue.[/b]

[i]"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[/i] - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838

From the Phorum Guidelines

You are either part of the solution or a part of the problem...take your pick...and repeatedly saying that you are following Christ's example doesn't necessarily mean you are...

this thread wasn't meant to be taken so obtusely...it's pretty clear... preach with love to your audience, or your preaching is worthless...

[MithLuin]

I was very careful to put 'that I can find' to give the person who posted the quote in this forum the opportunity to save face. I did not do so because I didn't look - thoroughly. I checked Thomas of Celano and Bonaventure, the two most authoritative contemporary sources of the life of St. Francis. I also checked the more obscure ones that are available online ([url=http://books.google.com/books?id=J-geLPmduL4C&dq=Our+most+holy+father+Francis,+urged+on+by+his+zeal+for+the+faith+and+a+fervent+desire+for+martyrdom,+crossed+overseas+with+twelve+of+his+most+holy+brothers,&source=gbs_navlinks_s]Francis of Assisi: Early Documents[/url]). I didn't find any reference to it at all. I finally checked [i]all[/i] books on Google Books, and [i]one[/i] appeared: Englebert's biography. Do you see why I concluded that that was the source of the quotation?

Before you accuse me of cherry-picking the interview, I didn't post the entire thing [i]because it was long[/i]. I pulled out the part that discussed what happened when Francis met the Sultan because it was the relevant section [I chose three sections total]. I also linked to the full interview so that anyone who wanted to could read more if they were interested, and find out who this scholar I was quoting was. Before you accuse me of not liking what that scholar had to say because it 'isn't politically correct enough for me' [i]go back and read my post[/i] - I specifically chose someone to quote who was [i]not[/i] a modernist to show that a historical view of St. Francis (in context) is rather different than what is posted in the opening article. I was expressing extreme skepticism of the motives and actions attributed to St. Francis. That being said, I acknowledged that they had a point - the Sultan is universally described as being impressed by Francis and wanting to hear more of what he had to say. Thus, concluding that he did not blaspheme (to their ears) is not unreasonable. It is an argument for the absence of evidence, but they may have a point there.

Look at the Frank Rega's quotation again: "It is just that Christians invade the land you inhabit, for you blaspheme the name of Christ and alienate everyone you can from His worship."

Is St. Francis mocking/dishonoring Islam with this statement? Is he calling the prophet Mohammed a devil? No. He is accusing the Muslims of not being Christian, a charge they are likely to agree with! Being strong and forceful while stating the truth is not the same thing as being needlessly insulting. If you are trying to egg someone on so that they will kill you already and you can be a martyr...well then, it might be effective, but I'm not sure it's a terribly 'Christian' way to behave. Accepting martyrdom if it comes your way? Sure. But trying to set someone else up as your murderer? Ehhhhh, I don't know about that....

And, strangely enough, [i]Rega agrees with me[/i]. That's right, the guy who put those words in Francis' mouth in the interview went on to say:

[quote]First, I think it is important to realize that [b]St. Francis did not openly attack the Muslim religion or Mohammed.[/b] He was not armed with a copy of the Koran in one hand and the Catholic Catechism in the other. In fact there is no indication that he ever instructed his friars who undertook such a mission to study the Koran or the tenets of Islam. His goal was to carry to the unbelievers the very presence of Christ, and the essence of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and salvation.
[/quote]


I am not accusing Omer Englebert, the author of St. Francis' biography, of anything. He wrote a biography which generally is the author retelling the life of someone. That's....kinda the point! If he included dialogue in quotations, that's for the story, and no reader would take it as a verbatim rendering of the words of the people involved, unless there was an endnote giving the source.

I [i]am[/i] saying that taking a quote from a 1979 work and passing it off as a quote of St. Francis is dishonest, [i]if[/i] it is done knowingly. I don't think it was. That was why I traced the lineage of the quote. The person who has plucked it from the biography is Raymond Taouk, who referenced it with a footnote, and correctly attributed it to 'followers of St. Francis' (actually, St. Francis himself isn't even present during this episode in the biography). Another site identifies him as "Father Raymond Taouk, SSPX." Other places your quotation appears on the internet tend to attribute it to St. Francis directly, and tend to stem from very traditionalist comments. It is not a huge leap to suggest that the 'source' of the quote being attributed to St. Francis is an inattentive reading of Fr. Taouk's article. And now that it is out there as 'St. Francis said...' it gets repeated without anyone catching the error.

I saw the error, and wished to correct it.

If it is not an error, then please, correct me. Identify the 'true' source of the quote, and I will be happy to have found it!

You are wondering why I went to such trouble. I studied medieval history in college, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I find that many people do not understand the world view of medievals, so I like to take the opportunity to interject that when I can. Also, St. Francis of Assisi is my favorite saint. I love to read about him, and learn more about who he was. When I stopped to think about the quotation, and realized I couldn't place it, I went looking. When I had to keep looking...and looking...and nothing turned up....well, I was confused.

[Jaime]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1282536526' post='2161860']
[b][i]If obedience doesn't give you peace, it's because you're proud."[/i] - St Josemaria Escriva[/b]

[b]Personal Attacks[/b]
A post or comment that has nothing to do with the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people. This includes, but is not limited to, calling people "heretics" (used in a derogatory manner), "democrooks", etc.

[i]"Never reprimand anyone while you feel provoked over a fault that has been committed. Wait until the next day, or even longer. Then make your remonstrance calmly and with a purified intention. You'll gain more with an affectionate word than you ever would from three hours of quarreling. Control your temper."[/i] - St Josemaria Escriva
[size="7"][b]Negative Criticism of Other Religions[/b][/size]
[b]A post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue.[/b]

[i]"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[/i] - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838

From the Phorum Guidelines

You are either part of the solution or a part of the problem...take your pick...and repeatedly saying that you are following Christ's example doesn't necessarily mean you are...

this thread wasn't meant to be taken so obtusely...it's pretty clear... preach with love to your audience, or your preaching is worthless...
[/quote]

Thank you Dominicansoul for posting a caring and orhtodox comment. These messages are worthy of repeating and there are many here that can learn from this

[KnightofChrist]

The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth, and others religions are false because either they give false worships to the True God, or give false worship to false god(s). Grave sin can dåmn one to hell if they do not repent. It is only through Christ that we can be saved. Inching ears is used by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition uncharitable? No. There are many references to the willfully blind in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Again is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition uncharitable? No. Christ was also accused of not being charitable because He said things straight and to the point. He was not and is not a 'respecter of persons', He spoke Truth even though it angered the crowd to the point that they murdered Him. Was He also uncharitable? No. We should take His example and not risk watering down Truth for the sake of those that may find it offensive. PS That's constructive criticism. I've not broken the rule of Negative Criticism of Other Religions.

Edited August 23, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

Anyway I'm done with this if people wish to continue to judge me as a uncharitable unchristian pharisees, so be it.

God Bless brothers and sisters in Christ.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282535276' post='2161849']
"For I have given you an example, that as I have done to you, so you do also." - Jesus Christ, only Son of the Living God
[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

Knight, you are inadvertently negatively criticizing other religions by calling Jesus Christ "the only Son of the living God". Just thought you should know.