Apologia

[Fragments]

What does 'ad/versus orientem' mean?

[Moosey]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1283378009' post='2166570']
I prefer a Mass in the vernacular (english or spanish) so that I can have a better chance of not zoning out. If the Mass ever went to Latin only I'd be in trouble!

The 1st post in the thread was a good read though, but I still stick to a non-Latin Mass.
[/quote]
I zone out at the NO because I know English so well. When it's in Latin I can focus on the words so much more (if I have the Latin/English book which I do) because I'm reading it and it keeps me on my toes. It doesn't help that all the NO masses in my area are just one big liturgical abuse and zoning out just keeps me from killing everyone

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Fragments' timestamp='1283378647' post='2166584']
What does 'ad/versus orientem' mean?
[/quote]
It's referring to the way the priest faces.
Ad orientem means "with the orient", which means that the priest and congregation are facing in the same direction, towards the altar and crucifix. Versus means against.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283378726' post='2166587']
It's referring to the way the priest faces.
Ad orientem means "with the orient", which means that the priest and congregation are facing in the same direction, towards the altar and crucifix. Versus means against.
[/quote]
My Latin is, I'm sure, inexact and laughable, but that's pretty close anyway.

[Fragments]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283378793' post='2166588']
My Latin is, I'm sure, inexact and laughable, but that's pretty close anyway.
[/quote]


Thank you, it explained it perfectly.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283378726' post='2166587']
It's referring to the way the priest faces.
Ad orientem means "with the orient", which means that the priest and congregation are facing in the same direction, towards the altar and crucifix. Versus means against.
[/quote]


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283378793' post='2166588']
My Latin is, I'm sure, inexact and laughable, but that's pretty close anyway.
[/quote]

Actually... it's really far off... sorry nihil... .

Ad Oritentem literally means "To the East". Traditionally and architecturally the congregation always faced east in prayer due to a verse in Revelations that speaks of Christ rising from the East (in reference to the 2nd coming). Therefore, we face east in prayer in anticipation of the second coming of our Lord.

Since the congregation faced east, that means the altar would be on the eastern side of the church. "Ad Orientem" refers to the posture of the priest. If the priest is facing east, and the altar is on the east side of the church, then the priest is facing the altar and not the congregation.

The term "ad orientem" used today commonly just means "the priest faces the altar." The priest facing the altar doesn't mean he is necessarily facing east, as many churches are no longer built in such a manner that to face the altar would also be facing east.

[Slappo]

I would like to see a reverently celebrated mass from the 1962 missal that permitted for the use of vernacular in the mass. I think certain prayers should remain in Latin at all times, such as the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer), but other prayers I believe could and should be available to be celebrated in the vernacular. I would still want to see the TLM celebrated entirely in Latin, but I would like in the future to see permission for a partial vernacular celebration of the TLM as well.

I wonder if a vernacular TLM would be more spiritually edifying to those Catholics who have a very difficult time attending the TLM (such as lilred). I honestly think that the option of partial use of the vernacular would be beneficial for the TLM. I would probably attend a partial vernacular TLM over an entirely Latin one.

[Moosey]

TLM usually isn't completely in Latin. The readings are reread in English and the Homily is in English as well.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1283382929' post='2166639']
Actually... it's really far off... sorry nihil... .

Ad Oritentem literally means "To the East". Traditionally and architecturally the congregation always faced east in prayer due to a verse in Revelations that speaks of Christ rising from the East (in reference to the 2nd coming). Therefore, we face east in prayer in anticipation of the second coming of our Lord.

Since the congregation faced east, that means the altar would be on the eastern side of the church. "Ad Orientem" refers to the posture of the priest. If the priest is facing east, and the altar is on the east side of the church, then the priest is facing the altar and not the congregation.

The term "ad orientem" used today commonly just means "the priest faces the altar." The priest facing the altar doesn't mean he is necessarily facing east, as many churches are no longer built in such a manner that to face the altar would also be facing east.
[/quote]
(And as a footnote, the other term, [i]versus populum[/i], means "turned towards the people".)

[Sarah147]

I also think it is beautiful, and I am all for Orthodoxy and Traditionalism. But, I find the language to be a barrier. Having to keep staring at a paper to get what they are saying, and missing where exactly they are at... It's difficult. I like the full participation of my language.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Moosey' timestamp='1283385828' post='2166667']
TLM usually isn't completely in Latin. The readings are reread in English and the Homily is in English as well.
[/quote]
okay, so 90% Latin, 10% vernacular.

[MithLuin]

I've attended a NO papal mass where much of it was in the vernacular (Italian) but a good bit was in Latin, as well. For the parts that were in Latin, the Italian was provided in the little booklet to follow along.

Since I have no Italian, it was all foreign to me, but since it was the mass, I was able to follow along, more or less.

I forgot to mention that this was Easter Triduum in St. Peter's with the pope

That Easter Vigil mass was one of the most awesome masses I have ever been to, for a lot of reasons. JP II's health was failing (this was 2003), but it was an awesome, awesome mass. I couldn't tell you what the homily was about, though!

I've also been to quite a few masses in Spanish, but I know some of that, so again, enough to follow along. There, I typically know the topic/gist of the homily, though I wouldn't say I'm getting much out of the instruction. With an interpreter, I do better (ie, my sister whispering in my ear ). One reason I go to Spanish masses is because they don't leave anything out; they're not afraid of a 2-3 hour Palm Sunday mass, so you get to do the whole procession around the block and everything . Lots and lots of young kids present, too. [The parish I've gone to for the past 2 years has a Spanish mass every week.]

In general, I close my eyes during the consecration at mass. So, I'm relying entirely on the priest's voice to keep me grounded and tuned in to what is happening. If he is speaking a foreign language...it's much harder for me to pay attention to when this actually happens! I certainly understand why they used to ring the bells to clue people in - hey! consecration now, pay attention!

Incidentally, when they ring the bells at a NO mass in the vernacular (in a language that I know - English), I now find it jarring and distracting, since I know about the consecration from other cues. I liked them when I was little, though. I also followed along in the missal prior to my first communion, so that helped to teach me the mass.


I think liturgy is important (liturgy done badly is very disappointing and jarring), and I also appreciate reverence (both on the altar and from the congregation). But, honestly, to me the mass is the mass. The important part is...Jesus. He's really the whole point of everything. I find him present at a NO and a TLM, and don't really see the need to choose one vs the other. It's like the choice of whether I go to the mass with the 19th century hymns or not. Sure, it's still a choice, and people have very strong preferences...but it just doesn't really matter to me very much. Latin is a treasure of the church, so it would be very sad if it were lost. So, I'm glad someone somewhere is saying a Latin mass. I'll go to one occasionally, if I have reason to. But it will probably remain a novelty to me, like the Spanish mass. I'm a visitor there, not because I'm not Catholic, but because I'm not part of the culture. I feel that is also the case with the TLM. But being a visitor is good, too; I get new insights into the mass when I see it through a different language/culture.


Thank you for sharing your thoughts, [b]Rexi[/b] - that was a beautiful tribute to the mass!

Edited September 2, 2010 by MithLuin

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1283383052' post='2166644']

I would probably attend a partial vernacular TLM over an entirely Latin one.
[/quote]
so would I, and I think LilRed would have an easier time as well.
I think its too distracting to having a running translator in my head while I'm attending Mass, so with the exception of the Kyrie, I want English. I want my responses to be automatic, and not have to think about them, so I am in the moment at the Mass, not working out the details in my head.

I have done the Latin masses, I grew up with them, I just prefer not to attend them.

[Hilde]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283376799' post='2166520']
Good call.
This is one of my favourite pictures on the internet:
[img]http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/images/most-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass.jpg[/img]

To me, it says everything that needs to be said.
[/quote]

I love these kinds of pictures. The TLM is so much better when you imagine Christ on the cross in the front. I don't feel as though the priest is standing with his back to me as much as I feel we're just standing in the same direction.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Moosey' timestamp='1283385828' post='2166667']
TLM usually isn't completely in Latin. The readings are reread in English and the Homily is in English as well.
[/quote]

The readings are reread in English as [b]part[/b] of the homily. It is the choice of the priest to reread the readings in the vernacular. You will in no place find the rubrics of the mass instructing a second reading of the readings in the vernacular language (if you can, let me know!). So... the [b]homily[/b] is in the vernacular.

As the purpose of the homily is entirely instruction of the faithful, a homily that the faithful could not understand would be completely pointless.

[dUSt]

The TLMs that I attended always read the readings in English.

[Hilde]

The ones I've gone to have had everything but the homily in Latin.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I like having teh readings in Turkish. Sounds cool.

[dUSt]

What is the purpose for reading the readings in Latin?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1283443898' post='2166988']
What is the purpose for reading the readings in Latin?
[/quote]
The readings are a divine epiphany, a true manifestation of God, and an act of worship. Any didactic purpose is secondary. All the "smells and bells" surrounding the Liturgy of the Word make a lot more sense when this is understood. In the EF the vernacular rereading and homily are not part of the liturgy strictly speaking.