Proof Of Reincarnation?

[dairygirl4u2c]

questions, comments, words of wisdom?

Parents think boy is reincarnated pilot
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Technology/story?id=894217&page=3

Some comments:
[quote]"I strongly recommend to read a book " The Reincarnation Controversy - Uncoveing the Truth in the World Religions" by Steven Rosen. ISBN 1-887089-11-X. It is the most authentic book I have ever read.Dr. Goyal"

"I wouldn't have believed the story if something similar hadn't happened to me. As soon as my daughter began to talk, she began telling us that she died in a fire (we aren't fireplace people), went to the University of Wisconsin and had lived in Houston, Texas. (We live in NC and know no one in either place). She even gave us the names of her former parents and the city they lived in. We googled that and found that a couple with those names did exist in that city, and they were not common names. We once asked her if she wanted to visit her former parents and she looked at us and very maturely said "no, it's ok. I live with you now." My husband and I were both raised devout Christians, but this experience has certainly challenged our beliefs."

"Reincarnation was a concept taught by the early Christian church. It was disgarded by the newly converted Constantine, the first holy Roman Emperor, as a means to unify a chaotic ,defunct empire. He held a meeting with the top clergy members of the day in Nicea where they hammered out a more user-friendly version of the new testament...and it did not include the reincantion info. This is where the Catholic Nicene Creed came from. It lists all of the things you need to believe in ...in order to not go to hell. Much easier, you see, to make the ruling class and clergy the "ONLY" way to heaven. This all worked nicely to keep control of the unwashed masses all during the Dark Ages...then came the Renaissance and all that nasty "questioning".By the by, Jesus was an Essene. They were an ancient "out there" Jewish sect who believed in reincarnation. This is one of the reasons his own priests were against him.His own followers often asked if he was one of the old prophets returned to them as a charismatic young man who preached about being personally responsible and loving thy neighbor. Just look it up. It is in the bible..... New Testament...which has been rewritten, revised and translated more times than any book in history.Nothing is to be feared but the darkness of ingnorance and intolerance. Keep an open mind and the heart will follow. Be careful, though......they nail guys to crosses who speak of such things.DeGal"[/quote]

reincarnation in the bible
http://www.reincarnation.ws/reincarnation_in_the_new_testament.html

Edited August 25, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote]"Reincarnation was a concept taught by the early Christian church. It was disgarded by the newly converted Constantine, the first holy Roman Emperor, as a means to unify a chaotic ,defunct empire. He held a meeting with the top clergy members of the day in Nicea where they hammered out a more user-friendly version of the new testament...and it did not include the reincantion info. This is where the Catholic Nicene Creed came from.

...

By the by, Jesus was an Essene. They were an ancient "out there" Jewish sect who believed in reincarnation. This is one of the reasons his own priests were against him.[/quote]
Source for that?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (Hebrews 9,27-28).[/quote]

and more about a catholic type defense
http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation3.html


but when all is said and done... are we simply to say it's satanic, to defend the above verse? (mostly what's bein defended

Edited August 26, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i had questioned whether i should post the comments about 'early church believed it'.
i did want comments more on 'what are we to make of these children' etc

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote]Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (Hebrews 9,27-28).[/quote]
This quote has nothing at all to do with reincarnation. It deals with resurrection.

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1282788640' post='2163322']
This quote has nothing at all to do with reincarnation. It deals with resurrection.
[/quote]

Some people construe the Resurrection to be or mean "reincarnation". But you are right, it has nothing to do with reincarnation.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it says man is destined to die once. that's clearly indicating that it's not possible to reincarnate and die again. not that it should be taken so literal- but that's what it says.
everyone who's ever defended the traditional christian position, uses that verse. even the academic used it, in the last link.

Edited August 26, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Gregorius]

Traditional Christian position nothing, reincarnation goes directly against the Christaian worldview.

Herein lies some copypasta of what the Church fathers say on the matter.

[spoiler]Irenaeus

"We may undermine [the Hellenists’] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact—that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence. For if they were sent forth with this object, that they should have experience of every kind of action, they must of necessity retain a remembrance of those things which have been previously accomplished, that they might fill up those in which they were still deficient, and not by always hovering, without intermission, through the same pursuits, spend their labor wretchedly in vain. . . . With reference to these objections, Plato . . . attempted no kind of proof, but simply replied dogmatically that when souls enter into this life they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance, before they effect an entrance into the bodies. It escaped him that he fell into another, greater perplexity. For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact . . . ?" (Against Heresies 2:33:1–2 [A.D. 189]).



Tertullian

"Come now, if some philosopher affirms, as Laberius holds, following an opinion of Pythagoras, that a man may have his origin from a mule, a serpent from a woman, and with skill of speech twists every argument to prove his view, will he not gain an acceptance for it [among the pagans], and work in some conviction that on account of this, they should abstain from eating animal food? May anyone have the persuasion that he should abstain, lest, by chance, in his beef he eats some ancestor of his? But if a Christian promises the return of a man from a man, and the very actual Gaius [resurrected] from Gaius . . . they will not . . . grant him a hearing. If there is any ground for the moving to and fro of human souls into different bodies, why may they not return to the very matter they have left . . . ?" (Apology 48 [A.D. 197]).



Origen

"But if . . . the Greeks, who introduce the doctrine of transmigration, laying down things in harmony with it, do not acknowledge that the world is coming to corruption, it is fitting that when they have looked the scriptures straight in the face which plainly declare that the world will perish, they should either disbelieve them or invent a series of arguments in regard to the interpretation of things concerning the consummation; which even if they wish they will not be able to do" (Commentary on Matthew 10:20 [A.D. 248]).



Arnobius

"[M]an’s real death [is] when souls which know not God shall be consumed in long-protracted torment with raging fire, into which certain fiercely cruel beings shall cast them. . . . Wherefore, there is no reason that [one] should mislead us, should hold our vain hopes to us, which some men say is unheard of till now, and carried away by an extravagant opinion of themselves, that souls are immortal, next in point of rank to the God and ruler of the world, descended from that Parent and Sire. . . . [And] while we are moving swiftly down toward our mortal bodies, causes pursue us from the world’s circles, through the working of which we become bad—aye, most wicked . . . [and] that the souls of wicked men, on leaving their human bodies, pass into cattle and other creatures" (Against the Pagans 2:14–15 [A.D. 305]).



Lactantius

"What of Pythagoras, who was first called a philosopher, who judged that souls were indeed immortal, but that they passed into other bodies, either of cattle or of birds or of beasts? Would it not have been better that they should be destroyed, together with their bodies, than thus to be condemned to pass into the bodies of other animals? Would it not be better not to exist at all than, after having had the form of a man, to live as a swine or a dog? And the foolish man, to gain credit for his saying, said that he himself had been Euphorbus in the Trojan war, and that when he had been slain he passed into other figures of animals, and at last became Pythagoras. O happy man!—to whom alone so great a memory was given! Or rather unhappy, who when changed into a sheep was not permitted to be ignorant of what he was! And [I] would to heaven that he [Pythagoras] alone had been thus senseless!" (Epitome of the Divine Institutes 36 [A.D. 317]).



Gregory of Nyssa

"[I]f one should search carefully, he will find that their doctrine is of necessity brought down to this. They tell us that one of their sages said that he, being one and the same person, was born a man, and afterward assumed the form of a woman, and flew about with the birds, and grew as a bush, and obtained the life of an aquatic creature—and he who said these things of himself did not, so far as I can judge, go far from the truth, for such doctrines as this—of saying that one should pass through many changes—are really fitting for the chatter of frogs or jackdaws or the stupidity of fishes or the insensibility of trees" (The Making of Man 28:3 [A.D. 379]).



Ambrose of Milan

"It is a cause for wonder that though they [the heathen] . . . say that souls pass and migrate into other bodies. . . . But let those who have not been taught doubt [the resurrection]. For us who have read the law, the prophets, the apostles, and the gospel, it is not lawful to doubt" (Belief in the Resurrection 65–66 [A.D. 380]).

"But is their opinion preferable who say that our souls, when they have passed out of these bodies, migrate into the bodies of beasts or of various other living creatures? . . . For what is so like a marvel as to believe that men could have been changed into the forms of beasts? How much greater a marvel, however, would it be that the soul which rules man should take on itself the nature of a beast so opposed to that of man, and being capable of reason should be able to pass over to an irrational animal, than that the form of the body should have been changed?" (ibid., 127).



John Chrysostom

"As for doctrines on the soul, there is nothing excessively shameful that they [the disciples of Plato and Pythagoras] have left unsaid, asserting that the souls of men become flies and gnats and bushes and that God himself is a [similar] soul, with some other the like indecencies. . . . At one time he says that the soul is of the substance of God; at another, after having exalted it thus immoderately and impiously, he exceeds again in a different way, and treats it with insult, making it pass into swine and asses and other animals of yet less esteem than these" (Homilies on John 2:3, 6 [A.D. 391]).



Basil the Great

"[A]void the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog, who say that they have themselves formerly been women, shrubs, or fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know, but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish" (The Six Days’ Work 8:2 [A.D. 393]). [/spoiler]

[Winchester]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1282829223' post='2163459']
it says man is destined to die once. that's clearly indicating that it's not possible to reincarnate and die again. not that it should be taken so literal- but that's what it says.
everyone who's ever defended the traditional christian position, uses that verse. even the academic used it, in the last link.
[/quote]
The shift key is your friend. It will help you capitalize letters when needed. [i]Strunk and White's Elements of Style[/i] will help you. It's cheap and easy to read.

[dairygirl4u2c]

myes

[dominicansoul]

if this story is not being "created" by the parents, especially, since it is surely their words against ours...it is truly an interesting phenomenon... but it could be...it truly could be a soul in purgatory, making his acquaintance with the young boy...

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1290837323' post='2189504']
if this story is not being "created" by the parents, especially, since it is surely their words against ours...it is truly an interesting phenomenon... but it could be...it truly could be a soul in purgatory, making his acquaintance with the young boy...
[/quote]

More likely a demon trying to crush faith. And apparently succeeding, with those parents. Look at the fruits. I've heard of demons pulling that kind of B.S. before. They love playing mind games. They try to draw the victim into a discussion based on their lies, preferably if it involves an emotional bond, suddenly pull the rug out from under them, then crush them. It's been Satan's M.O. from day one.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 27, 2010 by Sternhauser

[dairygirl4u2c]

"Look at the fruits."

i wouldn't rule out that it's demonic. but i wouldn't call it 'bad fruits' just because the parents or people are starting to believe it.
then again, the parents are questioning their beliefs as christians-- if it's causing to question being christian at all.. that 'might' be a bad fruit, but probably not. people are usually prone to 'either or' attitudes way too much. even if reincarnation was true, it doesn't mean christianity isn't. it might mean some churches that teach it's true, are not true, sure etc. maybe to a catholic it's 'bad fruit', but to other christians, you got to show more than just a contradiction to a particular belief system.
true bad fruit would be things like the children disobeying their parents, breaking up families due to things other than questining iwhether it's from God or not. (jesus said he came to bring divisino, and to set families against each other, too) and stuff normally thought of as bad fruit, like at apparitions. (other than beliefs that question the CC or a particular belief) things that are not 'Godly'.
then again, i suppose i'm not sure what fruits are being referred to, exactly.

Edited November 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1290894055' post='2189568']
even if reincarnation was true, it doesn't mean christianity isn't. it might mean some churches that teach it's true, are not true, sure etc. maybe to a catholic it's 'bad fruit', but to other christians, you got to show more than just a contradiction to a particular belief system.
true bad fruit would be things like the children disobeying their parents, breaking up families due to things other than questining iwhether it's from God or not. (jesus said he came to bring divisino, and to set families against each other, too) and stuff normally thought of as bad fruit, like at apparitions. (other than beliefs that question the CC or a particular belief) things that are not 'Godly'.
then again, i suppose i'm not sure what fruits are being referred to, exactly.
[/quote]

Reincarnation is contrary to Christianity, not just Catholicism.

~Sternhauser

[dairygirl4u2c]

given how orthodox it is, it could very reasonably be seen as legit to say that it's a bad fruit just because people might start believing it, or questiopning what tehy've been taught.
buit with that said... it's in my opinion a terrible example of 'bad fruit'.
everything taught by mainstream or even orthodox christianity isn't necessarily true. just like many things in judiasm weren't necessarily true, and many things in the early christian church, etc. as saint paul said 'let God be true, though every man a liar'.
it's pretty weak, of the person, to say 'if reincarnation is true, then christianity isn't true so i'm not going to be christian any more' or something. it's a particular belief, a good chrisitan shouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater. that's being so dogmatic, it's putting particular dogmas over truth. it's putting the bathwater over the baby.
even if reincarnation was true, it doesn't mean christianity isn't

Edited November 27, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290896168' post='2189571']
Reincarnation is contrary to Christianity, not just Catholicism.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Dairy,
Sterhauser is absolutley correct. Reincarnation is not simply non-compatible with Christianity; it is directly contrary to it. The thing that separated Jewish and Christian world views from the pagans and others in society what that it was linear and not cyclical. This is something brought up by those who first encounter Christianity and by the first several Christian generations. History, outside of Judaism and Christianity, was viewed in a cyclical manner and it is our current linear conception of history that we draw from Judaism and Christianity. We see this in the Scriptures. God acts in a new way for humanity with creation, then covenants and then with the saving action of Christ. There is not a return but rather the Scriptures are pretty clear when we die here, it is over. (Think about the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The rich man sees Lazarus with Abraham and wants to Lazarus to come help him and Lazarus can't. He then asks if he can return from the dead to warn his brothers and he can't. In fact, the rich man is told that his brothers have Moses and the Prophets that God spoke to, they need nothing more.) (Also the Witch of Endor that Saul uses to talk to Samson. Samson is dead and clearly dead and is presented as not coming back). We are presented with a linear view of history not a cyclical one and this is ultimately the main difference. It is an entirely different spin on the unfolding of history, on our lives, and on the way God acts in the world than in reincarnation. God doesn't constantly act in the same manner but in new manners as humanity progresses. In fact, though John the Baptist came back in the Spirit of Elijah, and Jesus was the Son of David, these men were clearly distinct though they operated in the same mode or context as the others: Great Prophet and Conquering King and Chosen One of God (respectively). If one holds that reincarnation is true, one cannot hold a Christian World-View as presented in the Scriptures and must take a different interpretation of the Scriptures than the way they present themselves. If reincarnations is true, then Christianity is not.
-AMDG

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

I apologize for not proofing this before posting it.

[dairygirl4u2c]

yes those are all very reasonable views.
on a just musing note, i might even see the possibility of reincarnation being true, just as a way for God to deal with the 'unlevel' playing field of life. someone dies when they are 21, just starting to understand things, like that pilot in that news article link above. someone else dies when they are sixty. and then there's the knowledge they've acquired, and how much they've acted on what they knew, and had etc, or didn't have or know etc. we all say it's up to God, and he can level the playing field and take it all into consideration. that's fair enough.
and as the two poster above argue, very reasonably, we could just go with orthodox christianity on the particular issue and the above line of reasoning.
but we could say very much that reincarnation, for some people, is a way for God to give someone another shot. this life is probably here for a purpose, and 'learning' in the next life isn't the way to do it, necessarily. this place has its perks or its reasons. plus, there's some modern day folks who say they know through credible sources of people who reincarnate. satan? maybe.
perhaps i'm tainting the water too much talking about reincarnation. st. paul says not to talk about about things that are scandaleous to other christians... or at least scandaleous acts, eg eating pork.
just some ideas.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290843121' post='2189528']
More likely a demon trying to crush faith. And apparently succeeding, with those parents. Look at the fruits. I've heard of demons pulling that kind of B.S. before. They love playing mind games. They try to draw the victim into a discussion based on their lies, preferably if it involves an emotional bond, suddenly pull the rug out from under them, then crush them. It's been Satan's M.O. from day one.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head Stern. People tend to downplay the role and very existence of demons, the devil etc. Deceit is their tool of choice as common to them as a toothbrush is to us, parents who allow their child to entertain such thoughts are complicit in the fruits reaped even if its unintended. I see these TV shows like the ones dealing with pschic youth and ghost hunting the same way, a satanic tool to allow or call demons into peoples lives. I see where some of these shows solicit catholic priests, or at least a catholic priest, when they, the theologically untrained hosts of the show, decide the "ghost" may be demonic, one show featured a couple in a mobile home who created a " seance circle " with salt to call a demon through a ouija board and the host, some young guy from a college in Pa. determined through questions that a demon came into their lives when one of the members broke the circle by running away when he became scared. I wonder how many idiots seen this on national television and tried it at home thinking they would get to see a cool demon and be safe whithin the circle, despite the warning " do not try this at home " they appended to the show. These TV shows and their apparent popularity seem to me to be just another tool of satan to place evil into the hearts and minds of the masses as much popular Tv and media is these days. They do not refer to him as the great deceiver for nothing. I wonder why it is so hard for people to recognize there is a devil, even many christians think the devil is a ruse perpetuated to scare us to follow Christ. This seems to be as if they are just discounting much of the bible while maintaining they are christian.

ed

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1290956373' post='2189654']
yes those are all very reasonable views.
on a just musing note, i might even see the possibility of reincarnation being true, just as a way for God to deal with the 'unlevel' playing field of life. someone dies when they are 21, just starting to understand things, like that pilot in that news article link above. someone else dies when they are sixty. and then there's the knowledge they've acquired, and how much they've acted on what they knew, and had etc, or didn't have or know etc. we all say it's up to God, and he can level the playing field and take it all into consideration. that's fair enough.
[/quote]

Dairygirl, truly, God doesn't need reincarnation in order to level the playing field. He's all just. He's more than capable of judging the entirety of someone's life, including all the circumstances, including their handicaps. We are given a lifetime to accomplish what we are expected to accomplish. Not a certain number of years. A lifetime. Everyone gets an equal shot, and God supplies superabundant actual grace to [i]everyone, [/i]no exceptions.

~Sternhauser