Implicit Condoning Of Protestantism/scandal

[Skinzo]

I'm not really sure about all of this. Some things have been done in the interest of ecumenism which I question. When John Paul II was archbishop of Cracow he allowed Billy Graham to preach in his cathedral. Does that condone or promote Protestantism?

S.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Skinzo' timestamp='1285075284' post='2175059']
I'm not really sure about all of this. Some things have been done in the interest of ecumenism which I question. When John Paul II was archbishop of Cracow he allowed Billy Graham to preach in his cathedral. Does that condone or promote Protestantism?

S.
[/quote]

Depends on the context. Obviously preaching the homily during Mass wouldn't be legit. Outside of Mass, it all depends on why he was there and what he preached about.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1285203810' post='2175387']
Depends on the context. Obviously preaching the homily during Mass wouldn't be legit. Outside of Mass, it all depends on why he was there and what he preached about.
[/quote]




What he did was to have the usual "Billy Graham crusade" in the cathedral at Krakow.  Interestingly, Cardinal Wojtyla approved it and then went off to Rome where he was elected pope. 


S. 

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Skinzo' timestamp='1286063368' post='2177554']
What he did was to have the usual "Billy Graham crusade" in the cathedral at Krakow.  Interestingly, Cardinal Wojtyla approved it and then went off to Rome where he was elected pope. 


S. 
[/quote]

Well... it wouldn't be my choice if I were in his shoes. I'm curious to hear what he had to say in his defense.

[organwerke]

Well I don't adhere to Protestant beliefs, but nevertheless I admire the faith and the courage of many protestants who, for example, dare to spread the Gospel and Bibles in Islamic countries or dare to risk their lives such as that protestant lawyer who was killed some days ago with all his family ( 5 children and his wife) because he wanted to defend a christian worker against an usurer in Pakistan.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282806790' post='2163414']
They could be taking the name in some way from John the Baptist.
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing when I read the 3rd poll question.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1286167777' post='2177738']
Well... it wouldn't be my choice if I were in his shoes. I'm curious to hear what he had to say in his defense.
[/quote]




No, I don't think it would be my choice either. But I think one can cite many examples of  "implicit condoning" of some other things such as his kissing the Koran, and some trads were very upset about the prayer service in Assisi. 





S.

[MichaelFilo]

It's a business, it could name itself whatever it wants. It could name itself "The People's Soviet Republic Hospital" if it saw fit. Businesses are not moral entities, they are money making entities which offer services and goods to acquire the money.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287417681' post='2180374']
It's a business, it could name itself whatever it wants. It could name itself "The People's Soviet Republic Hospital" if it saw fit. Businesses are not moral entities, they are money making entities which offer services and goods to acquire the money.
[/quote]
I see...that's why it's ok that certain local affiliations of Catholic Charities indirect support PP!

Edited October 20, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[MichaelFilo]

Non-profits are organizations with some sort of mission statement. Businesses are too. They should hold on to their mission statements. However, general moral principals don't apply to those entities. No business has, as a part of their charter, a promise to name branches a certain way.


[quote]Our Vision and Mission
Vision of Catholic Charities

Believing in the presence of God in our midst, we proclaim the sanctity of human life and the dignity of the person by sharing in the mission of Jesus given to the Church. To this end, Catholic Charities works with individuals, families and communities to help them meet their needs, address their issues, eliminate oppression, and build a just and compassionate society.

Mission of Catholic Charities

The mission of Catholic Charities is to provide service to people in need, to advocate for justice in social structures, and to call the entire church and other people of good will to do the same.

Mission of Catholic Charities USA

The mission of Catholic Charities USA is to exercise leadership in assisting its membership, particularly the diocesan Catholic Charities agencies and affiliate members, in their mission of service, advocacy and convening. [/quote]

[quote]Our Mission, Vision, and Values provide a strong foundation and guidance for the work we do in transforming healthcare in the United States. It serves as a framework that expresses our priorities in responding to the care of those most in need.
Mission

Rooted in the loving ministry of Jesus as healer, we commit ourselves to serving all persons with special attention to those who are poor and vulnerable. Our Catholic health ministry is dedicated to spiritually centered, holistic care, which sustains and improves the health of individuals and communities. We are advocates for a compassionate and just society through our actions and our words.
Vision

We envision a strong, vibrant Catholic health ministry in the United States which will lead to the transformation of healthcare. We will ensure service that is committed to health and well-being for our communities and that responds to the needs of individuals throughout the life cycle. We will expand the role of laity, in both leadership and sponsorship, to ensure a Catholic health ministry of the future.
Values

We share a common vision and are called to act upon the following ideas and beliefs:

* Service of the Poor — Generosity of spirit, especially for persons most in need
* Reverence — Respect and compassion for the dignity and diversity of life
* Integrity — Inspiring trust through personal leadership
* Wisdom — Integrating excellence and stewardship
* Creativity — Courageous innovation
* Dedication — Affirming the hope and joy of our ministry
[/quote]

Edited October 20, 2010 by MichaelFilo

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287611253' post='2181119']
Non-profits are organizations with some sort of mission statement. Businesses are too. They should hold on to their mission statements. However, general moral principals don't apply to those entities. No business has, as a part of their charter, a promise to name branches a certain way.
[/quote]
Why do organizations receive special get-out-of-jail-free's? They're nothing more than a collection of individuals. If myself and a friend got together and started a group called "Catholic Buddies" and campaigned under that banner for state-funded abortion, that would be acceptable? No, of course not. So at what point does it become acceptable? When we have 4 members? 10? 500? 20,000?

[MichaelFilo]

Well, it depends on your mission statement, doesn't it? The "American Catholic Church" allows women to be priests and gays to marry. This is part of the reason it was created. If Catholic Buddies had as a part of it's mission a desire to promote Catholic dogmatic teaching and then went out and supported abortion then you can fault them.

Ascension Health wants to revolutionize health care by putting into place Catholic morality in healthcare. They are fulfilling their mission. The individuals have an obligation not to support Protestantism but the organization only is obliged to fulfill it's mission. An organization does not have moral duties, people do. It has ethical duties, but not moral ones. No organization can be bound to the requirements of Catholicism. (how can it get baptized?) It can only be bound to it's mission statement and values. Catholics within the organization have duties individually.

Let me give you an example. If you and your friends made "Catholic Buddies" you have individual duties not to support abortion, but if the institution has, as part of it's charter, a support for abortion, then we can say it is unethical (we agree baby murdering is unethical) and you cannot participate as a moral Catholic, at least not in that function.

The other problem is that simply having the name Baptist Health is no support for Protestantism. I am sure there is a town in Switzerland named Calvin and there is a town in Australia named Darwin. We do not imagine that those places, by their name, support those ideologies. Right?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287615382' post='2181136']
The other problem is that simply having the name Baptist Health is no support for Protestantism. I am sure there is a town in Switzerland named Calvin and there is a town in Australia named Darwin. We do not imagine that those places, by their name, support those ideologies. Right?
[/quote]
The rest of the argument aside for the moment, I'd like to address this particularly specious bit.
1. While Darwin was indeed named after Charles Darwin, I could find no record whatsoever that there is a settlement, village, town, city, or other form of human inhabitation named Calvin in Switzerland. Even if there were a town so named, it would not be unquestionable to presume that the town was there before Mr Calvin began his reform.
2. You've committed at least a few classes of logical fallacies in this argument - so much so that I can't even begin to sort out exactly which you've violated.
In any case, you've based it on a false premise. Town and Hospitals are not even close to being the same thing. Does your town change its name every time you elect a new mayor? No, but in the arena of hospitals and other businesses, companies, and organisations of this kind, it is not uncommon to change the name of a facility when the ownership changes hands.

Also, a common argument that I'm seeing in this thread is that it could be from the name of St. John the Baptist...well, yes, it could be, except that history tells us it isn't. It's named after the heretical sect of Christianity.

Reread the mission statement/vision:
[quote] Our [u][b]Catholic[/b][/u] health ministry is dedicated to [u][b]spiritually centered, holistic care[/b][/u], which sustains and improves the health of individuals and communities.
...
We envision a [u]strong, vibrant [b]Catholic[/b][/u] health ministry in the United States which will lead to the transformation of healthcare...We will expand the role of laity, in both leadership and sponsorship, to ensure a [u][b]Catholic[/b][/u] health ministry of the future.[/quote]
They unambiguously declare themselves Catholic multiple times. Tell me, since when has it become ok for a Catholic to openly endorse Protestantism?

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1287616697' post='2181145']
The rest of the argument aside for the moment, I'd like to address this particularly specious bit.
1. While Darwin was indeed named after Charles Darwin, I could find no record whatsoever that there is a settlement, village, town, city, or other form of human inhabitation named Calvin in Switzerland. Even if there were a town so named, it would not be unquestionable to presume that the town was there before Mr Calvin began his reform.
2. You've committed at least a few classes of logical fallacies in this argument - so much so that I can't even begin to sort out exactly which you've violated.
In any case, you've based it on a false premise. Town and Hospitals are not even close to being the same thing. Does your town change its name every time you elect a new mayor? No, but in the arena of hospitals and other businesses, companies, and organisations of this kind, it is not uncommon to change the name of a facility when the ownership changes hands.

Also, a common argument that I'm seeing in this thread is that it could be from the name of St. John the Baptist...well, yes, it could be, except that history tells us it isn't. It's named after the heretical sect of Christianity.

Reread the mission statement/vision:

They unambiguously declare themselves Catholic multiple times. Tell me, since when has it become ok for a Catholic to openly endorse Protestantism?
[/quote]

That is the issue. Does a name endorse anything?

Also, you'll have to prove that an organization is the same as the individuals who work for it. It has very specific mission, it can only be held to that mission. Like I said, you cannot put Catholic expectations on businesses, but only individuals. Businesses are money making entities with missions, usually making money. Now you can argue the morality of simply making money, but that isn't the issue. In as much as no business is expected to be Catholic but only to work within Catholic bounds towards it's end then we cannot expect that every Catholic businesses will strategically name itself. Rather, by using the name Baptist it may indeed be attracting more customers who are experiencing the Catholic ideals of medical care, which is good, and good for their bottom line.

Their use of Catholic is always followed by "health ministry." They are defining one of their services, maybe their only service, not themselves.

[Vincent Vega]

What does a hospital provide, aside from a health ministry?

[MichaelFilo]

There is a difference between an entity and the services it provides. I sell shoes. I am not shoes.

[Destroyer of Heretics]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283093742' post='2164936']
They both ate bugs?
[/quote]## WtP eats hunny - "everyone knows" that