Stupid Tourists!

[Philippe]

ya i think your right its not disrespect but more of lack of knowledge :\

[Quietfire]

annie,

yes i do have pictures of my family and friends around my home. But this is very different. Please understand, I do wish to learn, so I MUST ask.... to learn.
as I said, this is different.
/statues of saints i can understand, there are pictures of St. Kolbe(sorry if spelled wrong) so we know for a fact as to how he looks like

But I am talking about statues and prints(et.al) of Christ, Mary, and others where there were no poleroids or kodaks.

These statues, it seems to me, are a particular persons interpretation of what they want Christ to look like. or Mary, or others.
To me, this could be somewhat dangerous. You see, I understand that catholics dont pray TO the statue. But it still represents a graven image.
Christians believe that Jesus is the word, the verb that became flesh, Gods one and only son, a trinity, three in one. As such is also God. So to me, that statue could represent a graven image of God, as envisioned by the artist who made it.

So when I show pictures of friends and say 'this is my friend so and so, and this is a picture of my friend .....' and so on,,, these are images of that actual person that i am naming, not an interpretation of what I wish them to look like.
I find it difficult to look at a statue of someones idea of Christ and say "I know him, thats Jesus" because although it may be the 'accepted' likeness of what he looks like, in truth, no one alive today has seen the physical features of God.

Lets face it, I can look at a statue of someones interpretation of Christ or Mary(etc) and I have been guilty of assuming who that is. We all do or have done that.
That may be 'acceptable' but is it correct?

I often think that if God were to show up, right now, and start walking around, and wander into one or two churches....would he be pleased? Or would he say, "Who are all these statues of?"
These are the things I think about.

[Quietfire]

I cant figure out how to edit a post...to quote a small section and not the whole thing.

When I typed..

"Christians believe............"
I should have stated, "Some/Most Christians believe..."

Not every person who claims to be a Christian believes in the trinity.

Edited April 18, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

Still need that answer so im
BUMP ing it.

[crusader1234]

Oh yeah westminster abbey is what they talk about in the DaVinci code, and isnt it Anglican? Hmm... either way we should be showing respect for their beliefs just like we are asking them to respect ours. Right? After reading the book I want to go visit Rosslyn and the Temple. Im going on a trip to Europe after I graduate and those are 2 places I want to go take pictures of. I think that should be OK if I make sure they know I'm Catholic and not just objectifying the church.

[Quietfire]

BUMP

[Brother Adam]

[b]represents a graven image[/b]

There is nothing graven about it.

[CreepyCrawler]

When I visited Venice (San Marco's Cathedral) and Notre Dame in Paris, people were touring the place, even during mass. It was quite distracting.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]I often think that if God were to show up, right now, and start walking around, and wander into one or two churches....would he be pleased? Or would he say, "Who are all these statues of?"
These are the things I think about.[/quote]

These statues are representations. No Catholic should believe that the statues are the exact likeness of Christ or any other Saint. If God were to appear today I don't think he would be stuck on our 21st Century American views. I believe he would be very pleased that Christians are gathering among "such a great cloud of witnesses such as these" and continuly celebrating new life found in the Paschal Lamb.

For the record since we haven't talked before- Hi! I'm Bro. Adam, a resident non-Catholic around here. I run Flyfree Ministries found at www.flyfreeministries.org
I welcome you to come visit.

[Cesar624]

Oh man, I forgot to state another really inappropriate yet funny thing I've witnessed someone do in the Cathedral. LOL - this lady walks in, and she notices the Holy Water. So she comes up to it looking puzzled and not very sure as to what to do with it. So she dips her hands inside of the Holy Water and starts putting it all over her hands and she was rubbing her hands together as if she was washing her hands. I wanted to laugh SO BAD! And then she says to her husband "I'm washing away the sin." I stuffed my shirt in my mouth so my laughs wouldn't be heard. She meant well, but she really didn't know what she was doing. I found it sweet she wanted to "wash away" her sins before entering the Cathedral. I laugh everytime I think about her.

[Quietfire]

Bro. Adams,
hi there, and I completely understand what your saying. I understand that Catholics dont pray to them.
My problem is making others understand, and so far I have failed.

Please all, read my thread in 'Debate Table-Interfaith Dialogue"

This is for others as well as myself.

Is still think about these things though, bro.

Edited April 18, 2004 by Quietfire

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Cesar624' date='Apr 18 2004, 02:35 PM'] Oh man, I forgot to state another really inappropriate yet funny thing I've witnessed someone do in the Cathedral. LOL - this lady walks in, and she notices the Holy Water. So she comes up to it looking puzzled and not very sure as to what to do with it. So she dips her hands inside of the Holy Water and starts putting it all over her hands and she was rubbing her hands together as if she was washing her hands. I wanted to laugh SO BAD! And then she says to her husband "I'm washing away the sin." I stuffed my shirt in my mouth so my laughs wouldn't be heard. She meant well, but she really didn't know what she was doing. I found it sweet she wanted to "wash away" her sins before entering the Cathedral. I laugh everytime I think about her. [/quote]
LOL!

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 18 2004, 02:16 PM'] [b]represents a graven image[/b]

There is nothing graven about it. [/quote]
Dear Brother Adams,

I fear I do not have the understanding that most of you do, so please allow me to explain something, it is a poor example, but simplified for this point

In the Ten Commandments, when the Jews made the golden calf while Moses was receiving the Laws, NOW, we all understood that to be a graven image. I mean, no one believes that the Almighty is saying "MOOOOO"

Does it not then, leave one to believe that a statue representing Christ/God in a human form is also a graven image? Made by man, to be a representation of the likeness of God/Christ?

I really do wish to understand this.
Thanks.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]The Form of God?



Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy 4:15–18 in their attack on religious statuefor yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."

We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes (cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14). But what about statues or images that represent God? Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?

 
The Answer Is No



Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of thems: "[S]ince you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image [/quote]

[Paladin D]

[b]Quietfire[/b], would religious pictures and stain glass windows depicting Christ, Mary, and the Saints also be considered [b]graven images[/b]? Or do 3-dimensional carved objects only count?

[Quietfire]

dear Brother Adams,

THAT WAS SO GREAT AND THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
I definitely got it now.

dude, did u check out my posting in 'debate table- interfaith dialogue'

[Brother Adam]

Your very welcome. I will try to look and respond by the end of the day.

[Paladin D]

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 18 2004, 06:02 PM'] Oh yeah westminster abbey is what they talk about in the DaVinci code, and isnt it Anglican? Hmm... either way we should be showing respect for their beliefs just like we are asking them to respect ours. Right? [/quote]
I respect all Catholic buildings for what they are and as their faithful wish them to be treated. I would like the same courtesy when you hypothetically go to my cathedral.

Bear in mind a Saint is buried behind the screen you saw in that picture.

[Iacobus]

My friends were in Paris last spring and the EF people (tour group) had them TOUR Notre Dame DURING PALM SUNDAY MASS! Argh!