Bishop Williamson Floats Rumors Of New Motu Proprio, Fellay Denies

[Skinzo]

Bishop Williamson of the SSPX has been spreading a rumor that Rome is preparing a new motu proprio for the SSPX. But Bishop Fellay denies this and rebukes Williamson  for addressing the issue: 

August 24, 2010—Superior General Bishop Bernard Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), one of four bishops whose excommunications were lifted by Pope Benedict XVI in January 2009, today categorically denied any knowledge of an alleged special motu proprio being planned by the Holy See for the SSPX as stated recently by SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson. This rumored MP would not require the SSPX to take any sort of oath of acceptance where Vatican II and the New Mass are concerned.

“I’m very annoyed by the whole thing,” said Bishop Fellay. “Bishop Williamson’s statement is an unauthorized statement and is his own personal statement and not that of the Society.”

“It has never been the policy of the Society to base any kind of action or policy on gossip. I have absolutely no knowledge of any motu proprio.”

Earlier this week, Bishop Richard Williamson—who has allegedly been asked to refrain from publicly speaking on matters outside of faith and morals by the SSPX leadership—wrote a letter that was published initially on his website and then picked up by traditionalist internet Rorate Caeli blog.

In the letter, Bishop Williamson warns Catholics about the “danger” of a rumored motu proprio designed to lure the SSPX lay faithful into union with Rome and said, “…there is no way in which the neo-modernist teaching of Vatican II can be reconciled with the Catholic doctrine of the true Church.”

Doctrinal Discussions Continue

Bishop Williamson also said that according to both Holy See and SSPX sources, the ongoing doctrinal discussions have allegedly “run into a brick wall.”

However, in today’s interview Bishop Fellay categorically denied this assertion. He said that the doctrinal talks with the SSPX representatives and Holy See theologians are ongoing and proceeding as planned with the next meeting scheduled in September.

“There is nothing changed,” said Bishop Fellay. “All of this is gossiping and rumors and I’ll have nothing to do with rumors and gossiping. All of this is void—empty.”

“For the time being, everything is fine and everything is going smoothly according to plan,” he said.

Seminary Expansion Plans Revealed

In related SSPX news, RealCatholicTV’s Michael Voris today broke a story that Bishop Fellay had recently visited eastern Pennsylvania prospecting for a new potential seminary—a former Vincentian seminary in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia that could hold up to 160 seminarians. The former seminary is now called Mary Immaculate Center.

Bishop Fellay would not confirm nor deny the specifics of the report, but did say, “It is true we are looking for a second place for our seminarians. That much is true.”

He also added that over the past two to three years, the SSPX has been prospecting for new seminary locations in the United States and that, to date, they have viewed about 150 different properties.

According to the Superior General, the SSPX is exploring different possibilities and sizes of potential seminaries and land holdings.

“We have many vocations, and, right now, our current place is too small,” Bishop Fellay said. “That is our starting point.”

Remnant readers will recall that the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) prospected many existing closed seminaries in the eastern United States years ago before settling on building a new one in the Lincoln, Neb. diocese. The reports were that more than one diocese and archdiocese refused outright to sell to the FSSP, presumably due to their adherence to the Traditional Mass and Sacraments and theology.

Bishop Fellay said, “It will be a good test to see how cordial it can be [ecclesial relationships and prospective negotiations with the dioceses and archdioceses possibly selling their seminaries and land to the SSPX].”

Confirmed: High-Ranking Vatican Prelate Predicted End of Novus Ordo Missae

And finally, shortly after Pope Benedict XVI issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, thereby affirming the right of every Latin-rite priest to offer the Traditional Latin Mass and Sacraments without his bishop’s permission, while confirming the traditional Mass had never been abrogated, a few reports included a statement by Bishop Fellay regarding his conversation with a Vatican official on the MP’s potential effect on the future of the Novus Ordo Missae.

Despite news of a new translation of the Novus Ordo missal becoming available for use in Advent 2011, this new missal, as Remnant readers know, retained only 17 percent of the original orations from the 1962 missal.

Bishop Fellay today confirmed that after Summorum Pontificum was issued, “the high-ranking prelate thought we would have 20 to 25 years before the New Mass would disappear.”

http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-0831-mershon-fellay-interview.htm

[Nihil Obstat]

Just speculation here, but I wonder of we're seeing the start of another split in the SSPX, with Fellay's part coming back to Rome, and Williamson maybe reforming with the SSPV.

[goldenchild17]

I don't see him going back to SSPV, but yes he's seemed likely to split with Fellay for quite awhile now.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283606554' post='2167745']
Just speculation here, but I wonder of we're seeing the start of another split in the SSPX, with Fellay's part coming back to Rome, and Williamson maybe reforming with the SSPV.
[/quote]

The SSPV is sedevacantist so I doubt he'd go over to them. Bp. Williamson has a very strange idea of ecclesiology. Sedevacantism certainly makes more sense than this idea of the Pope being the head of two Churches.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283606554' post='2167745']
Just speculation here, but I wonder of we're seeing the start of another split in the SSPX, with Fellay's part coming back to Rome, and Williamson maybe reforming with the SSPV.
[/quote]
That's what happens once a split occurs. Once you believe that your opinion matters more than what the Church teaches, it's inevitable. Otherwise, we'd just have Catholics and Lutherans.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1283607967' post='2167751']
I don't see him going back to SSPV, but yes he's seemed likely to split with Fellay for quite awhile now.
[/quote]


[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1283608784' post='2167755']
The SSPV is sedevacantist so I doubt he'd go over to them. Bp. Williamson has a very strange idea of ecclesiology. Sedevacantism certainly makes more sense than this idea of the Pope being the head of two Churches.
[/quote]
I only mention SSPV because of their past history with the SSPX. Probably more likely would be Williamson simply starting his own order, but joining the SSPV has more poetic irony.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283609785' post='2167761']
I only mention SSPV because of their past history with the SSPX. Probably more likely would be Williamson simply starting his own order, but joining the SSPV has more poetic irony.
[/quote]

yeah, except Abp. Lefebvre expelled those who started the SSPV. Those who agreed with those expelled likely would have joined them already. What seems most likely to me is that if/when Bp. Fellay works things out with Rome then he will take himself and those who want to reconcile with him to Rome and Williamson and the rest of them who resist this integration will stay as they are. Will they still call themselves SSPX I don't know, But I think the basic core of them who resist Rome will stay together, though its possible that some of them leave altogether and go the independent route, or join other groups (though this latter doesn't seem likely to me).

pure speculation however, and not particularly useful to bother thinking about imho.

Edited September 4, 2010 by goldenchild17

[Nihil Obstat]

Since Fellay is superior of their order, it's more likely that the SSPX would officially come back to Rome, and anyone not on board with that would be forced to leave, right?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283611251' post='2167769']
Since Fellay is superior of their order, it's more likely that the SSPX would officially come back to Rome, and anyone not on board with that would be forced to leave, right?
[/quote]

That's how it would work yes. But I don't personally really see the remaining members of the group just disappearing and splitting themselves up among the other traditional groups/orders etc. not just from a philosophical standpoint, but logistical also. I think Williamson is a strong enough personality that he would be able to rally the rest of those who did not come with Fellay to Rome, and convince them to stay together. Then maybe there would be something like there is with some Eastern Orthodox rites, where there is the SSPX within Rome and the SSPX outside of Rome.

[dUSt]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1283608974' post='2167757']
That's what happens once a split occurs. Once you believe that your opinion matters more than what the Church teaches, it's inevitable. Otherwise, we'd just have Catholics and Lutherans.
[/quote]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1283612055' post='2167777']
That's how it would work yes. But I don't personally really see the remaining members of the group just disappearing and splitting themselves up among the other traditional groups/orders etc. not just from a philosophical standpoint, but logistical also. I think Williamson is a strong enough personality that he would be able to rally the rest of those who did not come with Fellay to Rome, and convince them to stay together. Then maybe there would be something like there is with some Eastern Orthodox rites, where there is the SSPX within Rome and the SSPX outside of Rome.
[/quote]
Yes, that's what I was imagining. I must have come off sounding otherwise.

Speaking of which, have you ever read about the Palamarian Church? I read a little bit about them earlier because they're very slightly related to the SSPX. Wacky stuff. Apparently their Mass has been stripped down so much that it's pretty much just the words of consecration remaining.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1283612055' post='2167777']
That's how it would work yes. But I don't personally really see the remaining members of the group just disappearing and splitting themselves up among the other traditional groups/orders etc. not just from a philosophical standpoint, but logistical also. I think Williamson is a strong enough personality that he would be able to rally the rest of those who did not come with Fellay to Rome, and convince them to stay together. Then maybe there would be something like there is with some Eastern Orthodox rites, where there is the SSPX within Rome and the SSPX outside of Rome.
[/quote]

I really don't think Williamson commands the respect he once did within the SSPX, though he may be able to take a few with him, most of the SSPX would follow Fellay back to Rome.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283648156' post='2167996']
Yes, that's what I was imagining. I must have come off sounding otherwise.

Speaking of which, have you ever read about the Palamarian Church? I read a little bit about them earlier because they're very slightly related to the SSPX. Wacky stuff. Apparently their Mass has been stripped down so much that it's pretty much just the words of consecration remaining.
[/quote]

yes I'm quite familiar with the Palmarian group. Though I understand why the term "wackly" might be used, I refrain from it in relation to the rad-trad groups because despite my disagreement with them, I still see many holy men and women inside these factions, albeit quite mistaken. But yes, they are rather more out there than the others, especially in regard to some of their positions that have nothing to do with sedevacantism, like their view on Consecration for example.

Edited September 5, 2010 by goldenchild17

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283648156' post='2167996']
Yes, that's what I was imagining. I must have come off sounding otherwise.

Speaking of which, have you ever read about the Palamarian Church? I read a little bit about them earlier because they're very slightly related to the SSPX. Wacky stuff. Apparently their Mass has been stripped down so much that it's pretty much just the words of consecration remaining.
[/quote]

The first pope at Palmar de Troya asked Arch. Lefebvre to ordain and consecrate him but ended up getting an old Vietnamese bishop to do it instead. Lefebvre sent a priest from his headquarters in Switzerland to go offer them the sacraments though. They used to use the Tridentine Mass but now they just say a rosary and use the words of consecration. They also believe that St. Joseph and the BVM become truly present in the host, not just Christ.

The SSPX was a really interesting mix in the 70s. Some of the professors at Econe would say the New Mass at parishes on the weekend while others didn't even regard Paul VI as the pope. It wasn't really until JP2 was elected and started reaching out to the SSPX that Arch. Lefebvre started enforcing the party line in his organization.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1283659639' post='2168128']
I really don't think Williamson commands the respect he once did within the SSPX, though he may be able to take a few with him, most of the SSPX would follow Fellay back to Rome.
[/quote]

we shall see I suppose. I believe the sede leaning group within the SSPX is a bit stronger than many realize (though I fully admit I could be mistaken). And many trads from many groups still have quite a bit of respect for Williamson despite what the media and others have had to say about him.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1283668113' post='2168179']
we shall see I suppose. I believe the sede leaning group within the SSPX is a bit stronger than many realize (though I fully admit I could be mistaken). And many trads from many groups still have quite a bit of respect for Williamson despite what the media and others have had to say about him.
[/quote]

Many trads have quite a bit of respect for Williamson [b]because[/b] of what the media has said about him.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1283668643' post='2168185']
Many trads have quite a bit of respect for Williamson [b]because[/b] of what the media has said about him.
[/quote]

Maybe. My point was that, one can't gauge how the traditional community feels about Williamson based on how the rest of the world sees him. I remember when all of the controversy first came out surrounding him that he still kept his base of support (I know because I was one of those who supported him). I don't remember any type of fall out in the traditional community because of any of it. From this I was saying that I think Williamson still has enough support for when Fellay works things out with the Vatican that I think he could lead the rest of them in continuity. Will this ultimately be what happens? Not necessarily, maybe nihil is right and they break up and go this way and that or wherever. But I see them staying more or less together, albeit smaller, with Fellay and his group working within the Church, and Williamson and the rest working juridically and canonically outside of it.

[Skinzo]

 One thing that seems odd to me is that given the SSPX's stress on obedience and discipline you would think  Williamson would respect the authority of Fellay and keep his mouth shut. I also wonder why Fellay does not impose further discipline on Williamson given his apparent defiance at times of his "silencing"?  But then Fellay has no claim to be a source of unity, only the papacy can claim that.

I think it all goes back to the point made earlier that the papacy is truly the focus of unity in the Church, and once you reject it, there is no hope of unity. We see that in the history of  Protestantism which now has over 7,000 distinct denominations from what started with Luther. Rejecting papal authority only leads to endless fragmentation. 

As St. Cyprian said in 251: "On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?"




S.

[MithLuin]

Yeah; I'd say that Fellay and Williamson are [i]both[/i] bishops, so...on what basis does Fellay feel he can order Williamson around? When Lefebvre was the only bishop in the community, things were a bit different!

From my viewpoint (which is admittedly [i]not[/i] that of members of the SSPX!), the question is whether they would find it acceptable to be one group within the larger Church, or whether they will insist that the whole Church agree with them and admit they were right all along. If they are content to stay more or less how they are, but be brought into union (with a Church that also remains more or less how it is), things will work out somehow. Because then it's not a matter of changing, it's just a matter of acknowledging that the other guy isn't wrong. For instance, they can keep saying the Traditional Latin Mass (exclusively), but they'd have to acknowledge that the NO is also...mass. Not a mass they have to go to or participate in, but.....

If it's a matter of being right...well, they're not going to prove to the worldwide Church that they are the remnant of the true Catholic faithful and that Vatican II was wrong. And if that is their driving motivation, they're not going to welcome a union that brings them into more direct contact with people who don't agree with them. And then there is the issue of obedience.... It might be easier for some to give lip service to the idea of a pope as long as they are allowed to disagree with him. Meaning, some people might have gotten quite comfortable outside the Church, and will suddenly find themselves being sedevacantists (for instance) once invited back inside.

It might be inevitable that some of the group will reject any reunion Fellay agrees to (if Fellay agrees to anything at all), but there will always be fringe groups that aren't Catholic (but like to call themselves Catholic). I doubt the Vatican is going to make a concerted effort to bring the others back into the fold. [The historical approach would be to send in friars or priests to evangelize the heretics....] The SSPX is in a unique situation because of how the split happened...and how close they've stayed to legitimate doctrine.

I feel that at this point, the Vatican has done their part - they've lifted the excommunications, and they've allowed for a much greater usage of the Latin mass. Now...the ball is in the SSPX's court. [I realize discussions are two-way, but the next 'move'...is unlikely to be Pope Benedict's]

I certainly hope the situation does not lead to a complete splintering of the group.

Edited September 5, 2010 by MithLuin

[goldenchild17]

[size="2"][quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1283693215' post='2168216']
Yeah; I'd say that Fellay and Williamson are [/size][i][size="2"]both[/size][/i][size="2"] bishops, so...on what basis does Fellay feel he can order Williamson around? When Lefebvre was the only bishop in the community, things were a bit different!
[/quote]

I think Bp. Williamson has been allowed to get away with more than the others, maybe due to also being a bishop. However, Bp Fellay was elected Superior General by the rest of the SSPX, so he "should" be considered their head by anyone who lives under their rules (presumably Bp. Williamson is included in this).

[/size][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][quote[/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]]I certainly hope the situation does not lead to a complete splintering of the group[/quote][/size][/font] [font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font] [font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]Considering what seems to be the dynamic of the group, I personally just don't see how this cannot be the outcome, unless Bp. Fellay were to completely back out of any talks with Rome whatsoever. However, I do agree that I certainly hope that there won't be such splintering, just that I can't imagine how it won't end up like that. I would love it if Williamson would reconcile and use his knowledge and passion for good and for Rome. I know many don't like him, but I always have for some reason, and wish he would come back if and when Fellay does. I just don't see how it would happen, without some major and unnecessary changes on the Vatican's part.[/size][/font]

Edited September 5, 2010 by goldenchild17