For The Phatmass Phlute Players

[OnlySunshine]

Alright. I need some help! I have been doing so much research and looking at flutes I cannot think straight. Literally, there are so many options to choose from (do I get a open holed or a closed holed? Inline G or Offset G? C foot or B foot?...). I first decided I was going to go with a Yamaha YFL-211 or the like, but I cannot find a good deal anywhere and my budget is $300 or below. I would really like to find one less than $300 but still get a good flute. Brands in the running are Jupiter, Armstrong, and Emerson. I've heard conflicting things about all of them, mostly about the Armstrong with it "being a cheap brand" or something. However, the first chair flute player in my junior high school band played a beginner Armstrong and it sounded pretty good. The ones I thought were cheap were Artley, Bundy, Selmer, and Gemeinhardt. Having owned a Gemeinhardt 2SP, I know I will NEVER own another one ever again. The sound quality was HORRIBLE! Plus, the E and F were WAY out of tune (this was a brand new flute, too). I ended up selling it on eBay.

I refuse to buy a flute on eBay. I only go there to compare prices and models, but I am very leery of buying one on there because of the cheap Chinese flutes that keep showing up. I don't want to get jipped. I have found some really good flutes online with reputable dealers like Music ReMasters, Flute4U, others that offer at least a 7 day grace period for you to return the flute if you don't like it. Several of them offer 6 months to 1 year of a warranty where you can get the flute adjusted or repaired if needed. That, to me, is the safest bet.

I've looked at several listings on Craigslist, but all of them are either cheap Artleys, overpriced Armstrongs and Yamahas (for my budget), or the cheap First Acts or Simbas. I called two listings for Yamahas--one was listed at $150 and the other at $100--and asked them several questions. The main question was if the serial # contained "A" as I have read in several places that this is an inferior flute because of the quality control problem. Both of them were "A" models. I have looked in the classifieds with no luck. I have also called a few music stores around and they all want WAY too much for a used Yamaha ($518 at one). So, Yamahas are unfortunately out.

The best ones I have found so far are:

**Jupiter JFL-511 II (closed hole, offset G) with a solid silver headjoint (which is rare) in EXCELLENT condition ($299)

Emerson ELD (open hole, inline G) that is silver plated in GREAT condition ($222)

Jupiter JFL-507S (closed hole, offset G) silver plated in GREAT condition ($225)

Armstrong 102 (closed hole, offset G) with a solid silver headjoint in EXCELLENT condition ($295)

**Armstrong 80 (open hole, inline G) with a solid silver headjoint AND body in GOOD condition ($300)

**Pearl PF-501 (open hole, offset G, B foot, Gizmo key, split E) silver plated in EXCELLENT condition ($325; which is over my budget but if it's a good flute, I would definitely consider it)

(** annotation means these are the flutes I am strongly considering due to their value)

I am planning to pursue a career in music so an intermediate might be my best choice until I can get a job and afford something better a few years down the road. As you can see, I have a lot to choose from. All of these flutes have great warranties and return policies.

Please help me and provide me with your opinions of flute brands. I am kind of starting out in the flute world (I played oboe mostly in band), so I don't know which brands are good within these brands provided. I just know that Gemeinhardt, Bundy, Selmer, and Artley are TERRIBLE.

[Nihil Obstat]

I would recommend going to music stores and playing lots of flutes to get a feel for what you like and don't like. You don't need to buy from a store, but definitely take advantage of their display models.

[dominicansoul]

seeing that I am a Gemeinhardt enthusiast....I can't help you... LC pretty much trashed talked those flutes to the ground the other night...


...Left me in tears...

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283663091' post='2168157']
I would recommend going to music stores and playing lots of flutes to get a feel for what you like and don't like. You don't need to buy from a store, but definitely take advantage of their display models.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what I considered and I might go to one that I know of that will be open tomorrow. My mom also suggested that I look in pawn shops because I could find a really good price and have it reconditioned and adjusted so it will play properly. I have also called a good school of the arts in my area and asked them if they knew of any students who are selling their used flutes to upgrade, but they were closed on Friday, and they are probably closed Labor Day as well.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1283663230' post='2168160']
seeing that I am a Gemeinhardt enthusiast....I can't help you... LC pretty much trashed talked those flutes to the ground the other night...


...Left me in tears...
[/quote]

To me, Gemmies are not good. I really do not like the tone quality at all. It sounds tin-y. So, unfortunately, I agree with L_C.

[Nihil Obstat]

I recommend a Stradivarius!

Oh wait.......

[HisChildForever]

Open holed, most definitely.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283663542' post='2168164']
I recommend a Stradivarius!

Oh wait.......
[/quote]

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1283663639' post='2168166']
Open holed, most definitely.
[/quote]

Yes, this is what I think too, but that's another thing that is conflicting to me. Some sites mention that you don't need an open hole to be an intermediate. I also find more inline G opened hole flutes which is another thing that I really don't think would work well for me since I have short fingers. I also heard playing inline G flutes can cause tendonitis, which I've had before.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1283663917' post='2168168']
Yes, this is what I think too, but that's another thing that is conflicting to me. Some sites mention that you don't need an open hole to be an intermediate. I also find more inline G opened hole flutes which is another thing that I really don't think would work well for me since I have short fingers. I also heard playing inline G flutes can cause tendonitis, which I've had before.
[/quote]

I would definitely recommend the off-set G. I have relatively small hands and found that the off-set G improved my hand position.

Also, I know I do tend to trash the Gemeinhardts; however, I can attest to knowing one person that had a *very* good Gemeinhardt. She had the same model as mine and really, after playing hers, I would have thought we had two totally different flute brands. Her flute, in my opinion, was that one needle in the Gemeinhardt haystack of flutes.

In short (because I need to get to bed :snore: ) here are my recommendations:

- off-set G (this was a major help when switching from my Gemeinhardt to my Powell -- my hands no longer went numb after multiple hours of practice!!)

- open holes (if you're very new to this and don't want to cry yourself to tears in frustration from not being able to properly cover the tone holes with your ring fingers I'd say buy the little plastic tone hole plugs -- if the flute doesn't already come with them). Also, with the open holes, I personally find that there is more resonance in the sound and I just like the way it "feels" underneath my fingertips. However, I don't think most people could tell the difference just hearing me whether or not I'm playing a closed or open hole flute. Ah, and it's also nice to keep in mind [i]where[/i] you'll be spending a majority of your time playing this instrument. If you join the marching band in college, I would say do NOT get an open-holed flute for this. It will ruin the key pads. If you're going to be a most-indoor flutist, get the open holes. Definitely get them if you're planning on playing contemporary pieces. (There's some really nifty open-holed key effects and sounds needed for these... like this piece: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKl2KueV3Bc"]The Great Train Race[/url] or [url="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqekQs8q5l8"]Lookout[/url].

- split "E" key -- take it or leave it. (Seriously, just lift your right hand pinky when playing that third octave E... works like a charm.) Personally, I tend to stay away from all the little fancy "add on" trill keys, split E, etc. The more "add ons" you have, the more things can go wrong. Various professional flutists and flute professors I know recommend staying away from the "add ons"; however, I must admit... it would be nice to have that C# trill key for orchestra. Oh, and the "Gizmo" has never given me any problems, but I don't think it makes all that much of a difference.

- C foot vs. B foot -- honestly, how often are you going to be playing low B's anyway? Not many pieces ask this, unless you're playing more contemporary pieces. If this is going to be your "starter flute", I'd hold off on the B foot until you plan to upgrade.

- Of the flute brands you've mentioned, I've heard good things about all four (Jupiter, Armstrong, Emerson, Pearl). One of my former flute professors was a big "Jupiter" enthusiastic. (He played an Altus flute -- Jupiter is a beginner/intermediate line of Altus Flutes.)

I think the key is truly finding a good headjoint. I would recommend going to a local music store that has various brands and models of flutes and just trying them out for sound, feel, response, and intonation. Test the entire range if possible. Try various tounging exercises (to get a sense of the articulation), and also play some lyrical. One flute might work wonders for me, yet might be horrible for you. It's basically like playing on a specific reed. If you have a crappy reed, then nothing will sound good, no matter how awesome the rest of the instrument is.

Anyhoo, enough ramble -- if you have a local music store near by or are able to make a somewhat decent roadtrip to a good flute dealer (like FluteWorld, the Woodwind & the Brasswind, etc), go there to try out some possibilities. Many of these stores have financing options, or even "rent to own" deals, but if you are not able to do any of that, then just get a good sense for what works [i]for you[/i] at the store, then check online to find the best deal for the best quality.

Hope this helps.

[Marie-Therese]

In the list of flutes you gave, I would recommend the Jupiter 511 with the solid silver head joint, or the Pearl. The Pearl is a super high end flute but is very well crafted. However, the Jupiter is a great flute and the solid silver head joint is a huge plus. Since you're looking for an intermediate model that is affordable, I'd lean towards the Jupiter.

However, as others have said, it depends a lot on your ear and the way the flute plays for you. Trying some at a store would be the best way to go and give you an idea of what the action on a certain flute feels like.

Good luck finding a good flute! Finding reasonably priced flutes for my daughter has become a bit of a hassle so I know what you are going through.

[CatherineM]

Can't recommend anything about flutes, I play the bone, but there are some places you can get some decent used ones. Downtown pawnshops near where clubs are, often have good models that professional musicians down on their luck have had to pawn. Music shops can also have some used models when someone has upgraded, or just couldn't pay on anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of schools are closing their music programs, and their school models are being gotten rid of. They end up back at the music shop, or sometimes at the homes of private teachers. Try calling people on Craigslist who are offering flute lessons to see if they have any extras laying around they would be willing to part with.

[Deus te Amat]

As a proud 6 year owner of a Gemeinhardt 3SP, I have to voice my objection to your criticism. The beginner Gemeinhardts do have their problems, but so do all beginning flutes. I learned on an old Bundy, and I hated playing until I upgraded to my Gemeinhardt. Instantaneous improvement. I would never describe the tone as "tinny"... unless dependent on the embrasure. I love the tone of my flute, and find errors in sound to be personal rather than intrinsic. Idk...

Much of what a flute is is what you make of it. Everyone has a different method and style of playing, and different brands appeal to different people. I agree with LC in the suggestion to go try out multiple flutes before purchasing. Its how I chose mine.

Mine is an open holed,, solid silver inline G (I have really big hands) with the B footjoint. Everything LC recommended you against, so you can ignore my two cents, but please, don't diss my Gemmy.

[OnlySunshine]

Maybe you got a good one. I just know that mine was terrible so I refuse to try another one. I'm not saying Gemeinhardts are the only ones who have bad flutes--there are bad apples in every bunch. I really would love to have a nice Muramatsu silver flute! But sadly that will have to come much later.

[CatherineM]

Mine's a Cleveland King.

[Wikitiki]

...Buy a violin instead.

[/violinist's opinion]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1283663542' post='2168164']
I recommend a Stradivarius!

Oh wait.......
[/quote]


[quote name='Wikitiki' timestamp='1283714568' post='2168335']
...Buy a violin instead.

[/violinist's opinion]
[/quote]

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1283706341' post='2168288']
As a proud 6 year owner of a Gemeinhardt 3SP, I have to voice my objection to your criticism. The beginner Gemeinhardts do have their problems, but so do all beginning flutes. I learned on an old Bundy, and I hated playing until I upgraded to my Gemeinhardt. Instantaneous improvement. I would never describe the tone as "tinny"... unless dependent on the embrasure. I love the tone of my flute, and find errors in sound to be personal rather than intrinsic. Idk...

Much of what a flute is is what you make of it. Everyone has a different method and style of playing, and different brands appeal to different people. I agree with LC in the suggestion to go try out multiple flutes before purchasing. Its how I chose mine.

Mine is an open holed,, solid silver inline G (I have really big hands) with the B footjoint. Everything LC recommended you against, so you can ignore my two cents, but please, don't diss my Gemmy.
[/quote]
I"ve owned mine for 25 years...together we won several prizes, medals, music scholarships, contests, honors, kudos, congratulations,etc. etc. etc.

I like my Gemmy...she's my old faithful and I wouldn't trade her for the world!!!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1283713194' post='2168329']
Mine's a Cleveland King.
[/quote]

How old is it? I've never heard of that brand!


[quote name='Wikitiki' timestamp='1283714568' post='2168335']
...Buy a violin instead.

[/violinist's opinion]
[/quote]

Lol, I plan to play the violin later down the line. I've always loved Mairead from Celtic Woman because of the way she plays that fiddle/violin. She's a amazing! She actually trained at an Ursuline Convent in Ireland in her childhood. She kicks butt! I was watching a video of her performance last night and I love this video:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIxUXjJL4mk[/media]

I was fortunate to be able to see Celtic Woman live before Orla left (she was my favorite singer... ) in 2008. My mom bought me tickets to their concert in March as a Christmas present because I had been begging her to go with me! It was a LONG wait, but that night was a blast!

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1283725624' post='2168488']
I"ve owned mine for 25 years...together we won several prizes, medals, music scholarships, contests, honors, kudos, congratulations,etc. etc. etc.

I like my Gemmy...she's my old faithful and I wouldn't trade her for the world!!!
[/quote]

That's probably why yours is so good. From what I read, Gemeinhardt has only recently become terrible after they changed hands several times. The quality is not what it used to be.

[OnlySunshine]

Well, my search is finally over! I went to a Music and Arts center with the intention of trying out a few flutes to see what worked for me. They really didn't have much of a selection, sadly. They only had a Bundy, Haynes, Gemeinhardt and Yamaha. I didn't know they had a Yamaha because it was in the back with the rental instruments. I could never afford the Haynes on my budget ($2,259!) but I wish I would have tried it just for the heck of it to see what it sounded like. I decided to try the Bundy just to see how it felt, but I knew it wouldn't be a good flute, and I was right. It was heavy and the notes played in the 2nd and 3rd octave were jarring or wouldn't come out at all. So I handed that one back to the guy and asked him if he had any used flutes or knew of any one who was selling theirs. He said that they had used flutes that they usually rent but they also sell. I asked him if he had an Armstrong or an Emerson to try, but they were waiting for the shipment of more flutes because they've had [b]109[/b] students come in the last week to rent instruments for band. The only flute he had left was a Yamaha. I asked him if it was a beginner's model and it turned out to be the Yamaha YFL-221! If I bought it outright, it would be $780 (for used, which is ridiculous), but I could rent it for 3 months for only $15 and then after that pay $20 each month. I asked if I could try it (and he let me use a practice room for both trials) and I took it back and started playing the same notes I did on the Bundy. Let me tell you, they came out the smoothest I've ever heard! I was able to get up into the 3rd octave which I could not on the Bundy or my old Gemeinhardt. The tone quality was amazing! It was rich and lovely. The instrument was in pretty good shape with scratches and needed to be cleaned, but it played very well. I decided after a few minutes that I wanted to rent it at least while I was looking for something else. My mom suggested that I rent it until Christmas and then she and my grandmother could help me buy it! If I wait until then, I will only have to pay the balance which is 30% less than $780 (around $530). So, I took it home and I have been playing for about an hour. My pinky hurts, but I LOVE my new flute! It is really what I wanted in the first place, but thought I wouldn't be able to get.