Sacrifice

[morostheos]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1284075234' post='2171119']
I am familiar a community where less than half of the sisters wore a habit (it is optional). I learned that Richard Rohr, Joan Chittister, and Joyce Rupp were favorites to read from. Many are into the enneagram, labyrinths, reiki, and centering prayer. Inclusive language for God and people is the norm. Would you consider this "middle of the road?" If one was going to discern a community like this, would these things be easily brushed aside? Your thoughts please
[/quote]

I would definitely not consider that a "middle of the road" community. I also do not think I could easily brush aside the things you mentioned. Of course God calls people to all sorts of different places, but I think it is very important that potential communities have an authentic Christian spirituality - one that does not need to draw on other spiritual traditions to be complete. Of course there can always be exceptions to the rule - maybe the community has that sort of past but is moving in a different direction now, or something else that changes things. In general though, communities like that raise a warning flag in my head.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='morostheos' timestamp='1284076339' post='2171127']
I would definitely not consider that a "middle of the road" community. I also do not think I could easily brush aside the things you mentioned. Of course God calls people to all sorts of different places, but I think it is very important that potential communities have an authentic Christian spirituality - one that does not need to draw on other spiritual traditions to be complete. Of course there can always be exceptions to the rule - maybe the community has that sort of past but is moving in a different direction now, or something else that changes things. In general though, communities like that raise a warning flag in my head.
[/quote]

Multiquote doesn't seem to be working for me, so I can't post the original poster's question here as well - sorry. I agree with morostheos that one must be careful, but also with the statement that a community might be changing for good reasons, and one has to be careful in rushing to judgment.


So before judging this community, I would want to know a lot more. I hadn't intended to write much about my community, but this issue came up for me as well, and perhaps if I write about it, there might be some benefit for others.

I went to my live-in visit as a very traditional thinking person. I had been in a 1990s Carmel (almost pre-Vat 2 in many ways) and was attending Latin Mass. I supported the Apostolic Visitation and condemned women like Joan C and Sanda S and others who cause scandal by opposing the Holy Father's requests. Of course, I would also never condone such things as enneagrams etc. I knew where I stood on everything.

When I first met with the 'formator' (they don't use the titles of Novice Mistress or Reverend Mother there), we started to discuss our views of various things and I was appalled at first and wondered how God could have sent me to such a place. Some of the things the formator said to me scared me, and I ran to the Prioress with my concerns, thinking that the formator was, if not a heretic, at least seriously compromised in her ideas! On her part, the formator told me that she felt I was rigid and inflexible in my thinking, one of those conservatives who think that anyone who doesn't go to Latin Mass is wrong. I didn't feel this way in my heart, I know, but that is how I came across to her, just as she came across as too liberal and dangerous!

The Prioress was very kind but she laughed at my concerns and said that the formator was really a very traditional nun but she was also someone who likes to be open to new ideas as part of her response to Vatican 2. Over more than 45 years in the convent, the formator had lived through years of unreasonable oppressive hierarchy and control, and wanted those in formation now to be treated in a more humane and individual way than she had been. I trusted what the Prioress was saying and went back to the formator with the intention of trying to understand the formator's points of view (without necessarily agreeing with them). Over three months, the formator and I argued over countless issues and ideas.

Think about that for a moment.

A visitor (me) was arguing with the Novice Mistress (which is what she is despite her changed title). In most convents (and certainly in any of those I had been in before), this would have meant being shown the door, however politely, and being told that one did not appear to have a vocation. But this formator persisted with me through three months of stubbornness and almost hostility (to her ideas) with great patience and charity.

At one point I asked her if I could speak with each othe sisters individually to find out more about their ideas and opinions, since these are the women who would be shaping my future with their votes in Chapter on everything from what new statues to get, or whether or not the habit would be changed (it is a modified habit now). I told her I was afraid of ending up a 'pant-suit wearing, lapel pin wearing nun who followed Joan C. She laughed and said they had no intentions of changing to pant suits with lapel pins but that some sisters might actually like some of the things that Joan has said (although perhaps not the way she says them in public causing scandal). She agreed to my request and I met with each sister for about an hour. Each one was completely different and had her own ideas about things but all of them were in love with Jesus and fiercely loyal to the church. They were called from various walks of life, some converts, some cradle Catholics, but each one was there because she felt that God was asking her to give her life in prayer for the Church. They told me that before any changes were made, such as modifying the habit (which they needed to do because of the heat there), they would pray and discuss the topic over a long period of time to let the Holy Spirit guide them. They don't rush into anything. They are also very close to their Archbishop, who seems to me to be a very holy man.

What impressed me most was that they have such respect for each other as individuals, even if they don't agree on particular issues or topics. They accept that each one of them is different and entitled to her own opinion, as long as all are keeping the Rule and Constititutions and being obedient to the superior. One of the main things they focus on is unity among the sisters and charity for each other. The Prioress is viewed as another sister, a senior sister certainly, and as the superior, one who has the final say, but she is as much a member of the community as anyone else, and does the dishes and cooks in the kitchen on her days, just like anyone else. I didn't see this same equality at the other communities I have been in. What I did see here was that the sisters all love each other very much. For me, I fell in love with them as individuals and was made to feel a part of the family from the very beginning, even though I knew I was just a visitor.

What I am trying to say is that when I first got there, I was judging them from my own mental prejudices as to how I thought a Carmelite community should be. But just like people, each religious community is an organic whole, individual and different, like each family. Sure, there might be some warning signs that one needs to be aware of, but now I would be very careful before rushing into any judgment until I had met with the members of the community and discussed my concerns with them. If there is nothing to hide, then they will be happy to answer those questions, even if they seem a little confronting at first.

That being said, I would also make sure that the community as a group is going to be obedient to the Holy Father in all matters, no matter what their personal views, and that if they admire certain people, like Joan C, how does this affect their general attitude about obedence to Rome? With the 'new age' stuff, depending on what it is, I would want to know if this is something practiced right across the community, or just by individuals. In my community, some of the sisters like to go to alternative medicine practitioners while others prefer a regular doctor - both are accommodated and each sister is free to choose.

If you like this community, meet with them and talk to them and express all your concerns. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in this matter. I was a spiritual snob before, I admit it. That doesn't mean that I still don't prefer more traditional things, like the old habit for example, but I have enough common sense to know that if I do enter and am clothed, when given the choice (at clothing, a sister can choose the old one or the modified one), I will most likely choose the modified one. It isn't as 'romantic' or 'pretty' in my eyes, but I know full well that in that heat I would be changing the toque several times a day because of sweat! That sort of defeats the vow of poverty too with all that washing. In the Rule of St Albert (the Carmelite Rule), it says that 'common sense is the guide to the virtues'. If you can find a community that has common sense as well as love of God and neighbor (sister), then you are doing well. After all, it is going to become your 'home' and these sisters (wherever you end up) will become your 'family'.

Prayers for your discernment.

Edited - one thing I did think of was perhaps God moves some of us more traditional thinkers into convents to help them find their balance again, especially if they have become 'too liberal' (whatever that means). After all, one day, we too will have the vote in Chapter!

Edited September 10, 2010 by nunsense

[morostheos]

Well said nunsense! You said what I was thinking but I did not have the experience or knowledge to express properly!

[franciscanlady]

Thank you for your input Nunsense. I feel like sometimes I am too rigid and am sometimes I am afraid of God actually calling me to a community like this. When visiting, the sisters are wonderful but I can't get past some of these things. They actually seem to be moving away from traditionalism. For example, they recently went from the Christian Prayer LOTH to an inclusive language LOTH book that changes most scripture and prayers to avoid male pronouns for God and others (ex mankind). It makes me feel very uncomfortable to see these things. Even the sight of glass chalices being used at Mass is enough to turn me off. I sometimes wish that I could look beyond these things but most times I feel its gotta be a traditional community or none at all.

Edited September 10, 2010 by franciscanlady

[Nunsense]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1284086781' post='2171208']
Thank you for your input Nunsense. I feel like sometimes I am too rigid and am sometimes I am afraid of God actually calling me to a community like this. When visiting, the sisters are wonderful but I can't get past some of these things. They actually seem to be moving away from traditionalism. For example, they recently went from the Christian Prayer LOTH to an inclusive language LOTH book that changes most scripture and prayers to avoid male pronouns for God and others (ex mankind). It makes me feel very uncomfortable to see these things. Even the sight of glass chalices being used at Mass is enough to turn me off. I sometimes wish that I could look behind these things but most times I feel its a traditional community or none at all.
[/quote]

Ah, now we are talking about specifics here, so I would agree with your reservations. I don't think a glass chalice is canonically approved, although I am not a Church Scholar so someone else can correct me on this.

As for the inclusive language, that is being done a lot in different places, and even in my community, they use inclusive langauge for the Intercessory Prayers at Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. I don't like it, but at least they don't mess with the Gospel, and I have heard this done at some Masses as well!

I think that if this community does a lot of things that make you feel very incomfortable, perhaps this is the Holy Spirit trying to guide you elsewhere. St Ignatius does tell us to be aware of our affinities since this how God speaks to us.

Perhaps take this to God in prayer for awhile and the ask Him to guide you to the place He has prepared for you? It may not be exactly as you imagined it, but it shouldn't cause you a lot of heartache either.

[franciscanlady]

Thank you so much for your helpful advice

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1284086781' post='2171208']
Thank you for your input Nunsense. I feel like sometimes I am too rigid and am sometimes I am afraid of God actually calling me to a community like this. When visiting, the sisters are wonderful but I can't get past some of these things. They actually seem to be moving away from traditionalism. For example, they recently went from the Christian Prayer LOTH to an inclusive language LOTH book that changes most scripture and prayers to avoid male pronouns for God and others (ex mankind). It makes me feel very uncomfortable to see these things. Even the sight of glass chalices being used at Mass is enough to turn me off. I sometimes wish that I could look beyond these things but most times I feel its gotta be a traditional community or none at all.
[/quote]

Both of these reasons, IMHO, would be a cause for concern. Nunsense is right about the glass chalices. The GIRM states that all chalices must be made of precious metal. It cannot be made with any material that is considered "common place." If you want a reference point, this is a link:

[url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=60650"]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=60650[/url]

As for the LOTH, that would bother me too. It seems more and more women religious congregations are avoiding male pronouns because they believe that women should have more authority in the Church. I've heard it gone to the extreme by referring to God as a "she" instead of "he." It would bother me even more if the liturgy in the Mass was being changed to as it indicates a hostile attitude towards the Holy Mother Church's teaching which says that the words in the Mass formulas cannot be changed. I don't believe there is any regulation on the LOTH recitation, but I believe it is frowned upon.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1284094249' post='2171249']
Both of these reasons, IMHO, would be a cause for concern. Nunsense is right about the glass chalices. The GIRM states that all chalices must be made of precious metal. It cannot be made with any material that is considered "common place." If you want a reference point, this is a link:

[url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=60650"]http://forums.cathol...ead.php?t=60650[/url]

As for the LOTH, that would bother me too. It seems more and more women religious congregations are avoiding male pronouns because they believe that women should have more authority in the Church. I've heard it gone to the extreme by referring to God as a "she" instead of "he." It would bother me even more if the liturgy in the Mass was being changed to as it indicates a hostile attitude towards the Holy Mother Church's teaching which says that the words in the Mass formulas cannot be changed. I don't believe there is any regulation on the LOTH recitation, but I believe it is frowned upon.
[/quote]

The inclusive wording is so awkward IMO and seems so pointless as well but I can tolerate it for the intercessional prayers if need be. I agree with you though, once anyone starts changing psalms or gospels etc, then it just gets ridiculous. And trying to call God by anything other than He almost seems like a slap in the face to Jesus. I would definitely wonder about communities that do this!




[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1284094249' ] Thank you for your input Nunsense. I feel like sometimes I am too rigid and am sometimes I am afraid of God actually calling me to a community like this. When visiting, the sisters are wonderful but I can't get past some of these things. They actually seem to be moving away from traditionalism. For example, they recently went from the Christian Prayer LOTH to an inclusive language LOTH book that changes most scripture and prayers to avoid male pronouns for God and others (ex mankind). It makes me feel very uncomfortable to see these things. Even the sight of glass chalices being used at Mass is enough to turn me off. I sometimes wish that I could look beyond these things but most times I feel its gotta be a traditional community or none at all.
[/quote]

While there are dangers everywhere, I think that anyone discerning religious life in an active community in the US needs to be particularly careful. That is why there is an Apostolic Visitation going on after all. I belong to another online group that is mainly made up of sisters from active communities across the States who support the Visitation. Some of them are sad at the way their communities have gone, and are looking forward to being able to talk to the Visitators about this. It must be heartbreaking to belong to a community and that you don't quite fit in anymore because the leadership has moved in a direction that doesn't seem right. Religious are trained to obey their superiors, but if their superiors or leadership team has moved away from Rome, then what can the individual sister do? A lot of these sisters write on the forum that they feel unable to discuss this matter with their superiors as well.

What I am trying to say in my lengthy way, is that it is just wise to be prudent and careful, while also not judging prematurely. I think that things are definitely going to change a little over the next few years as the Visitation proceeds and the Vatican gets its report. Until then, it is certainly a good idea to try to find a place where you feel most 'at home' in terms of charism, spirituality and lifestyle (how the charism is expressed). Even though I have very few options myself (because of my age), I still felt it important that I discern very carefully before making a decision about something this important to how I live the rest of my life.

[Orans]

Dear phriends, this is a very valuable thread that I was feeling missing in our VS. Thank you Lillabeth for starting it and for your candid disclosure. Thanks to all who have participated. I felt this kind of openness and maturity was missing in the "official culture" of our VS, which has a quick loud voice to state what is right and what is wrong around religious communities.

Things are not as white and black with God and with life as we would like them and as we found often in more traditional milieus.

I've learn A LOT from the posts here in Phatmas, and I have to recognize that your opinions, desires, and difficulties -as well as your humor and youthfulness- have disclosed a whole world of more traditional approach to religious life than I was giving myself permission to accept and live out after many years in several religious communities. I'm deeply grateful to you all for that. I don't read all the posts, not even half of them -I don't have the time or the inclination- but I follow closely when there is significance and depth -which is often- ... or pictures [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img] .

I just want to express that I too have had to go through the process of purification that Nunsense is expressing so well, and I've had to do it in both directions (liberal and conservative) because both hold important values that complement each other. And like many of you I'm only beginning -again- and trying to learn more and more each day how to open myself to be led by the Spirit.

Thanks again [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blowkiss.gif[/img]

[krissylou]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284084659' post='2171197']
If you like this community, meet with them and talk to them and express all your concerns. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in this matter. I was a spiritual snob before, I admit it. That doesn't mean that I still don't prefer more traditional things, like the old habit for example, but I have enough common sense to know that if I do enter and am clothed, when given the choice (at clothing, a sister can choose the old one or the modified one), I will most likely choose the modified one. It isn't as 'romantic' or 'pretty' in my eyes, but I know full well that in that heat I would be changing the toque several times a day because of sweat! That sort of defeats the vow of poverty too with all that washing. In the Rule of St Albert (the Carmelite Rule), it says that 'common sense is the guide to the virtues'. If you can find a community that has common sense as well as love of God and neighbor (sister), then you are doing well. After all, it is going to become your 'home' and these sisters (wherever you end up) will become your 'family'.

Prayers for your discernment.

Edited - one thing I did think of was perhaps God moves some of us more traditional thinkers into convents to help them find their balance again, especially if they have become 'too liberal' (whatever that means). After all, one day, we too will have the vote in Chapter!
[/quote]

This whole post really struck me. Thank you.

The Church I was raised in and grew to love is probably more along the lines of the "pant-suit lapel-pin wearing, Joan Chittister-reading" end of things.

I think that being "the loyal opposition" is an incredibly important (though very, very, very difficult) role and isn't necessarily scandal.

That doesn't mean "anything goes." I had an initial meeting with a potential Spiritual Director once who remarked that if she hadn't been born Catholic she'd probably be Unitarian. I didn't go back. But I tend to feel more at home in the moderate-to-progressive wing.

I'm currently discerning the possibility of some sort of oblate/tertiary/associate sort of role. And I visited a potential community this past week. Really, I didn't think this was going to be anything close to a fit. They wear habits -- modified, practical habits. I remember a section in Dead Man Walking where Sister Helen Prejean talks about one of her sisters who was in a sewing store and felt a series of little tugs at her veil and turned around to find a very embarrassed woman who had mistaken her for a bolt of fabric!!! That wouldn't happen to this community. But they're definitely still habits. I don't mind the idea of (modified, practical) habits, but that does tend to correlate with a lot else. And they show up on lists of "traditional, orthodox orders to consider." This just is not going to be a fit.

And I have a couple specific issues that are a big deal and I am certain would lead me to being politely but promptly shown to the door.

BUT their apostolate is really interesting to me. And, well, the motherhouse is within walking distance. I really and truly should at least look at all options WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE. And they showed up on the "best convent food" thread so when they invited me over to lunch ....

I loved them. I met a bunch of sisters and then had a long talk with the Sister who is the main point person for the lay affiliates. I liked her a lot. I brought up my issue -- the one that I felt certain was going to show me to the door -- and it's not a problem. She kept talking about being open to the movement of the Spirit ...

It's a newer community so I didn't have a sense of their distinctive spirituality. (Not new new, but significantly newer than say, the Franciscans.) The more I see of it the more I like it.

So I'm nowhere nearly ready to start affiliate formation or anything, but I was so pleasantly surprised and I definitely want to continue the exploration. When I felt so confident that they'd be way too traditional for me.

So all this boundary-busting can happen in both directions.

[Sister Marie]

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most wonderful threads I have seen on here as far as everyone communicating ideas and understandings of things with one another and trying to share and grow with one another.

I would consider my community to be a middle of the road community because we wear a habit, pray and live together, go to daily Mass, pray the Rosary, have a common traditional apostolate, and a clear spirituality. We do have options with our habit and I will be honest, I hate some of the options! Before I entered I admit I looked down on some of the sisters who I felt made the wrong decisions and were in my eyes less than faithful witnesses. However once I entered, I realized that some of the sisters who were the most charitable were the ones who I had pegged as traitors. The sisters who I thought were "right" and "faithful" were at times so rigid in their understanding of habit, prayer, and rule that there was no compassion and no dialogue. It was painful.

A silly example (there are many more serious ones) is about a sister who had poison ivy all over her legs. The poor sister was working in the garden and was extremely allergic to poison ivy. She was in so much pain. We wear a modified habit and part of that is pantyhose. The doctor told sister that she couldn't wear them or her poison ivy would not heal. It itched and stung her so much but there was actually an argument over whether it would be alright for her to go without the pantyhose. To me, that should have been a no-brainer.

I also wanted to comment on feeling like you are holding something back from the Lord because you haven't given up enough. I felt that way before I entered as well. Another short but funny example is that I wanted silence, the real sacrifice of silence and austerity in the convent, even though I knew God was calling me to an active community. Well, my community has silence of consideration at night but it is not a grand silence in any way. I thought I was cheating by not giving that up. I thought the community had cheated at religious life by losing that austerity. Now, however, I wish I had silence because it would be easier than some conversations that happen in community. We are human and so we are bound to hurt one another and be uncharitable for one another. Conversation is more of a penance, more of a mortification for me than silence ever would have been. I just didn't know it until I entered.

I think too that you have to look at the context in things that have been changed. My community doesn't use the inclusive language office, however, when the intentions at office begin "my dear brothers" we change it to sisters. Not because of a hidden agenda to have more power, but because we are teachers and there isn't a man in the room, it just didnt make sense to adress our sisters, "my dear brothers". So, while I and the community understand that it is the prayer of the church, which of course includes men and women, it just didn't make sense to us. However, we never change the Scriptures. If Paul's letter says "Dear Brothers" we say "dear brothers." Scripture is different than an intercession that was written by a person that just doesn't seem to make much sense in its current context.

I think that this thread shows a lot of openness and understanding about the gray areas of decisions that communities have to come to through much prayer and dialogue with one another. It is never easy. Thanks for bringing it up and sharing all your wonderful insights!

Sister Marie

[Nunsense]

As Sr Marie said, sacrifice isn't always what we think it is. The things that appear the greatest sacrifice can be easy for some while those things that look easy can be the most difficult. God custom tailors our sacrifices to make them real and meaningful for each one of us.

[strgzr00]

Irrespective of whether the community is trad, middle of the road or even 'liberal', I think that a candidate should feel fluttery about the community. I substitute the community for a spouse for the candidate, who is going to 'marry' the community (this separate from a mystical marriage with Jesus). One should fall in love with one's community, not necessarily with each person, but with its charism, its history, its works. I do feel that one should follow nature re one's aptitude for the works.

It's very much like dating and falling in love. One can get fixed up with 'appropriate', 'suitable' men, good-looking, well-schooled, good job--and feel nothing. There has to be chemistry between two people and I believe, between a prospective candidate and an institute.
A reasonable way to search among the 300 institutes for women in the US is to search for an appropriate charism, works and life-style, draw up a list, and start searching each more carefully, eliminating as you go, Then the visiting and personal encounters begin and will eliminate some more. Getting to know a community is crucial to the decision. If there is chemistry, then the process can continue. But if there isn't , even if everything else is in order, I think that one should keep on looking. Sooner or later, if you have a vocation, you will find your community.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='strgzr00' timestamp='1284271261' post='2172180']
Irrespective of whether the community is trad, middle of the road or even 'liberal', I think that a candidate should feel fluttery about the community. I substitute the community for a spouse for the candidate, who is going to 'marry' the community (this separate from a mystical marriage with Jesus). One should fall in love with one's community, not necessarily with each person, but with its charism, its history, its works. I do feel that one should follow nature re one's aptitude for the works.

It's very much like dating and falling in love. One can get fixed up with 'appropriate', 'suitable' men, good-looking, well-schooled, good job--and feel nothing. There has to be chemistry between two people and I believe, between a prospective candidate and an institute.
A reasonable way to search among the 300 institutes for women in the US is to search for an appropriate charism, works and life-style, draw up a list, and start searching each more carefully, eliminating as you go, Then the visiting and personal encounters begin and will eliminate some more. Getting to know a community is crucial to the decision. If there is chemistry, then the process can continue. But if there isn't , even if everything else is in order, I think that one should keep on looking. Sooner or later, if you have a vocation, you will find your community.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure that I fully support this idea, although I do understand where it comes from. The thing for me is that the community is not the spouse; Jesus is. The community is the family of the spouse (the in-laws perhaps), and as such, may not always be as ideal as one could wish. If the focus is on the spouse, then this makes the in-laws more bearable, even if there are problems.

However, even if we do go with the 'community as spouse' view, I am not sure that 'fluttery' feelings are valid for determining the value of a 'potential spouse'. What I mean is, using the dating analogy, one can get fluttery feelings for a really charming cad while overloking the very solid and worthy, but less romantic candidate. And many 'arranged marriages' work out very well for both parties, starting first with friendship and moving through affection to love.

I would just be very careful not to focus on the packaging as much as the contents of the package. Perhaps we are saying the same thing here, but we also need to remember that affinities are not the same thing as emotional reactions. What feels good is not always or necessarily what is good for us.

I don't mean to be contentious here, just trying to clarify for myself what is being said.

Edited September 12, 2010 by nunsense

[stlmom]

Ditto to nunsense's above post.

[strgzr00]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284283977' post='2172192']
I'm not really sure that I fully support this idea, although I do understand where it comes from. The thing for me is that the community is not the spouse; Jesus is. The community is the family of the spouse (the in-laws perhaps), and as such, may not always be as ideal as one could wish. If the focus is on the spouse, then this makes the in-laws more bearable, even if there are problems.

However, even if we do go with the 'community as spouse' view, I am not sure that 'fluttery' feelings are valid for determining the value of a 'potential spouse'. What I mean is, using the dating analogy, one can get fluttery feelings for a really charming cad while overloking the very solid and worthy, but less romantic candidate. And many 'arranged marriages' work out very well for both parties, starting first with friendship and moving through affection to love.

I would just be very careful not to focus on the packaging as much as the contents of the package. Perhaps we are saying the same thing here, but we also need to remember that affinities are not the same thing as emotional reactions. What feels good is not always or necessarily what is good for us.

I don't mean to be contentious here, just trying to clarify for myself what is being said.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with this. However, not all candidates to religions institutes today are adopting the bride of Jesus analogy. The quality and nature of their community is really important to them and I think it should be. I think that there should be real enthusiasm there, too for the community, (most of) its members, its charism, its works--the [i]contents [/i]of the package. I don't detect a lot of enthusiasm in the discussion so far, which has turned mainly to discussions of orthodoxy. The distinction between true affinities and emotional reactions will be sorted out during discernment and, if need be, by entry and the long discerning period which follows.

If discerners research extensively religious communities, write, visit, discuss, pray, and discuss with others--and [i]still[/i] can't find a community over a period of a few years--perhaps they don't have a vocation [i]at that time[/i] , maybe later, but not then.

[Domine ut Videam]

[quote name='strgzr00' timestamp='1284304349' post='2172239']
I don't disagree with this. However, not all candidates to religions institutes today are adopting the bride of Jesus analogy. The quality and nature of their community is really important to them and I think it should be. I think that there should be real enthusiasm there, too for the community, (most of) its members, its charism, its works--the [i]contents [/i]of the package. I don't detect a lot of enthusiasm in the discussion so far, which has turned mainly to discussions of orthodoxy. The distinction between true affinities and emotional reactions will be sorted out during discernment and, if need be, by entry and the long discerning period which follows.

If discerners research extensively religious communities, write, visit, discuss, pray, and discuss with others--and [i]still[/i] can't find a community over a period of a few years--perhaps they don't have a vocation [i]at that time[/i] , maybe later, but not then.
[/quote]

Regarding the fluttery feeling and falling in love with the community, I know that I tend to try not to place the emphasis on these things in my own discernment. Perhaps this is wrong, but for me it is so easy to see a beautiful community and be swept up in my emotions. Of course, this is natural. In seeing a beautiful and holy community it is easy to feel attracted to them. For me I have to remind myself to remain emotionally chaste during discernment. (e.g. not planning out my name, what I will look like in the habit, etc...)

I do agree however that enthusiasm is crucial. While prudence is important it should never impede joy and infectious desire that often accompanies a vocation and discernment. I'll have to think more about this, but this is a very interesting and provoking discussion.

Under Mary's Mantle,
Lauren

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Many thinks to Lilllabettt for starting this thread. It was brave of you to post what you did, and it started a very personal, thoughtful thread, that, IMO, is one of the best theads on VS in awhile.

Reading the posts was very humbling for me, however, because it reminded me that there there is much more that I DON'T understand about the calling to religious life than what I DO understand, and there are so many things about Christ that most of you will have the blessing to fully experience, that I never will. I have the deepest respect, and awe, for those who have aready given their lives to Christ, and for those who hope to do so in the future. I think many "in the world" don't understand the call to religious life at all, much less support it. However, I do have the consolation that, even with my "infant understanding," I understand enough that all of you have my full support and prayers now, and in the future.

As for me, I am a crossroads, too, but a very different one. And, I ask God every day what he wants for me. He has already very painfully taught me the lesson of having to learn at least some humility. I think right now, I am in the midst of a very painful lesson of patience and trusting God, through loneliness and despair, and having no idea what the future brings, but realizing that I need to fully trust him if I am ever to have any inner peace.

However, the thread did make it clear that, although I see many attractions of religious life, I have never heard the call that all of you have, and probably never will. Your posts made it more obvious than ever before that God wants something very different from me, but I don't yet what it is, or have any idea where I fit in.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1284226365' post='2171891']
Now, however, I wish I had silence because it would be easier than some conversations that happen in community. We are human and so we are bound to hurt one another and be uncharitable for one another. Conversation is more of a penance, more of a mortification for me than silence ever would have been. I just didn't know it until I entered.

[/quote]

Sister Marie, thank you so much for your post!

I think your comment above is especially helpful. Part of why it rings so true with me is that my vocational decision itself was much like this -- [i]I [/i]wanted to be a religious, and I was SURE that the sacrifice of religious life was exactly what God was calling me to, and I wanted it. After all, didn't St. Teresa of Avila choose religious life because she felt it was the surest way to Heaven? How could I go wrong choosing the surest way to Heaven?! But for me, the sacrifice of marriage -- even the less-than-a-year that I have been married -- has done more for me spiritually than my five years of religious life combined. An example is the fact that I see things that I do in my marriage--faults that I commit--that I was incredibly [i]blind[/i] to in religious life, although I was still committing the same faults, just in a different way. I remember thinking, "No [i]wonder[/i] Sister So-and-so got upset with me!" but I was blind to it then. God desires me to become a saint through the vocation of marriage -- and marriage is more of a mortification and sanctification for me than religious life would have been.

I think some people have a tendency to be rather rigid in their thoughts regarding mortification, sanctification, etc. We have a tendency to "baptize our own wills," as a priest I know used to say. I remember a story St. Faustina tells in her diary of a Sister visiting her in the hospital and giving her an orange as a treat. St. Faustina's inclination was to mortify herself by not eating it, but she asked Our Lord what would be more pleasing to Him. He responded that it was more pleasing for her to eat the orange and to accept the charity the Sister showed her than to mortify herself and not eat it. I know there was a time in my life when I would have felt BAD eating the orange, like I wasn't doing enough! Sister Lucia of Fatima says it can be just as meritorious before God to thank Him for a meal and graciously accept it from His Hands than to go fasting. And a Sister I know greatly edified me once by accepting (on a Friday) a dessert from a tray a person offered her, but taking a chocolate brownie instead of a cookie -- I knew that she hated chocolate and was doing it as a penance, but I'm sure no one else would have!!! I even heard someone say, "It's Friday! We're not supposed to have dessert!" But although I knew she would definitely have rather not eaten dessert at all, she graciously accepted a charity from someone, and managed to make it a secret mortification in the process. Brilliant!

We can make everything a sacrifice -- the very "uneasiness" we feel about "not doing enough" can be a mortification in itself, and a beautiful source of sanctification for us, in so many ways! It might require us "thinking outside the box" a little, but imagine how pleasing those kinds of sacrifices are before God! [i]Especially[/i] because it means humbling ourselves and putting His will before ours.

[MithLuin]

My sister went through a long period of discernment (sometimes on again, off again) that meant she visited various communities that...did nothing for her. Even awesome groups (like, say, the Sisters of Life or Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal [I forget which]) on a nun run or short retreat weekend or something. On paper, they looked really good, but when she was there, there was no attraction. Sure, there were also things that didn't match her particular wish list, but the real issue was that she just didn't feel called to some of these groups.

So she kept looking.

When she met her current group, one of her first thoughts was, "I hope God doesn't call me here!"...because of the habits they wear. My sister wanted to wear a habit, but this particular one wasn't particularly appealing/attractive. And, like the others, there were things about the community that didn't perfectly match her wish list of what she was looking for.

But....she put in an application with this community.

Why? Because they were so joyful! She was just really drawn to the group, and wanted to be part of that. She's only in the novitiate, so she's still discerning her calling to this group. I think she'll have to make some sacrifices as she moves forward. After all - they didn't perfectly match her 'ideal community', so there's going to be things they do or ask of her that she wouldn't have really chosen herself. But, as far as she can tell, that is where God is calling her to be, so...she's there.

I think the real nature of sacrifice is surrendering ourselves to God's will. The details of how this plays out in each of our lives...is secondary. Be assured that if you ask God to let you suffer as an offering to him...He'll find a way! Even if you remain in the world, even if you join an 'anything goes' community.