Carmelite Nuns

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284755955' post='2174142']
Wait Wait Spanish and French veils huh? So the Spanish ones dont need a pen?

Oh dose the Brooklyn Carmelites have Spanish veils?

What about the ones is Nebraska?
[/quote]

Brooklyn Wears the french veils.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876422' post='2174485']
Brooklyn Wears the french veils.
[/quote]
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876289' post='2174484']
Interesting Nunsense... I my former OCD 1990 monastery we still had a tertiary during our very infrequent visits to the parlour. In all of My Monasteries both french and spanish as well as 1990 and 1991's we wore the Communion veil for mass. We also had a night veil and night scapular which always wound up around my neck by morning..lol. Only one of my Communities wore a great veil.[/quote]

Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876289' post='2174484']As for the spanish veils.. they were not sewn onto the toque in my monastery but as you said were changable as the touque got changed more frequently.[/quote]

Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]

Thank you for these links.... Mother Marie Ange was my Novice Mistress and Mother Josepha Marie was my Prioress when i was there. Interestingly enough the article does not mention what happened to Mother Josepha. I know for a fact that not all of the original sisters from Brooklyn died even though the article states that they all did. One of them is still there in the new foundation. I know because when i called the monastery, i was told first that they had all died and when i told the prioress who i was, only then did she tell me that that sister was there and sent her love. In respect for her i do not mention her name.

Brooklyn was/is a very fervent monastery. However they suffered very much at the hands of other Carmelite nuns because they stood firm to what they believed, right or wrong. They were forcefully closed down by a former Bishop in the diocese. Much of the accusations at that time were purely false. I am sure it was a true crucifixion for those who have since gone on to their reward. However their detractors also felt that they were being faithful in preserving the spirit of OHM. It is so complicated.

It seems that the Order of Carmel is going through a collective dark night of the soul. The division sometimes run deep as they seek to find balance again in the wake of the second council. Each Carmel seeks to be true to our holy Mother's vision and they all have valid points. The question often is if fidelity is found in adhering strictly to what was first laid down by Teresa as opposed to Later constitutions and to complicate matters there is a question of going further back to Carmels ancient roots as hermits and not as cenobites. The Second council did stress religious communities going back to their roots... However where do the roots of an OCD lie? Is it in the original rule and the ancient observance or is it roots dating from the time of the reform? But then again, The nuns never did have the opportunity to exist as hermits as they were founded after the migration to Europe from Mount Carmel. So the question is do the nuns get to go back to the hermit roots like the Fathers or do we still get caught in the life of the cenobium only to experience the hermit life a couple of days a month at most?

My Own community has returned to the life as hermits where in we spend most of our day in the hermitage except for 4 hours a day working at assigned tasks alone in the main monastery. In keeping with the original rule we come together only to hear mass daily and once a week for communal chapter and recreation and meal on Saturday evenings. The rest of the time is spent in the silence and solitude of the hermitage. Conversation during the week is limited to instruction for work, spiritual guidance and ongoing formational studies weekly. It is not a rigid silence but one freely taken on by each of the hermits as part of the patrimony of Carmel. All of the sisters except one are former OCD's we still wear full habit, keep the fasts etc...It is just as authentic as are the other expressions of Carmel.

What i do know is that each and very sister in Carmel whether 1990, 1991, or Hermit nuns.. is trying to live faithfully the Carmelite charism. In the end that is what counts most and we must learn to live and let live not second guessing another's motivations. I have only extreme love and respect for all my sisters in Carmel whether 1990, 1991, or hermits nuns and I embrace all willingly as I pray that each may become saints in their perfect love of God. I see myself no division but only different aspects of the beauty that is Carmel.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]

Laughing.. Yes that is a picture of the great veil usually only worn in the parlour or when the the enclosure gate had to be opened for some reason. When workmen would come to the monastery or a priest had to enter the enclosure to give the sacraments a bell would be rung warning the sisters to to keep to their cells and out of sight so usually outside of the parlour we did not wear the great veil. At time of Holy communion when the communion grate would open we would pull down our communion veil so our eyes were hidden... most do not do this anymore.

Thank you for setting me straight about Brooklyn's refoundation. Buffalo is an awesome Carmel. Buffalo was founded from the mexican Carmels and so would have the Spanish veil whereas originally Brooklyn was i think the seventh or ninth Carmel founded in the US. It was founded from Port Tobacco Carmel which later became Baltimore Carmel. The original sisters who came to the US were from the Carmel in Antwerp which came from the French Carmels. The Matthews sisters ( The original Founding Carmelites) still have decendants living in Port Tobacco. Port Tobacco was refounded in the 1970's. One of our hermits, then an OCD, was part of that refounding community.

The Spanish veil was pinned in the front and on the sides where i was but i am sure each Carmel does it differently. I never cared for the Spanish look as it looked like you were wearing a football helmet LOL.

Laughing and so here is all you never wanted to know about Carmel in the United States.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284773086' post='2174183']
I thought this was a pretty historical picture. It is a photo of the foundresses of the Nedlands Carmel with their visitors, the Good Shepherd Sisters. There is a Carmelite extern in the back on the left (wearing the bonnet type headgear). Later, this habit was changed so that the extern looked more like the choir sisters. I don't know if the white veils in this photo are lay sisters or Novices.[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/WithGoodShepherdsisters.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Wow Nunsense That is a pretty radical picture for those days... I mean Carmelites were almost never seen in pics in those days so openly.... mind blowing!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284888413' post='2174499']
Wow Nunsense That is a pretty radical picture for those days... I mean Carmelites were almost never seen in pics in those days so openly.... mind blowing!
[/quote]


Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.


Here is a photo of the foundresses leaving Sydney by ship for Perth in 1935. You can see the extern in the center - with the strange headgear! I am posting two versions of this because in one you can see the nuns better and in the other the whole scene is easier to see.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Shipwindows1935.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Manoora18May35sharper.jpg[/img]

Edited September 19, 2010 by nunsense

[vee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284893063' post='2174501']
Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.

[/quote]

Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share

[Nunsense]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284897667' post='2174509']
Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share
[/quote]

Yeah, I love that story. She never actually got to wear the black veil since she only spent 11 months in Carmel before she died, but she was able to make her profession in anticipation - neat huh? I figure as long as I can get clothed again, then I can die because I will be able to die a religious... and anticipate my vows too! lol

One of the older nuns made a joke about St T of the Andes. She said "Eleven months! Let her try 60 years in Carmel!" I think all of the older nuns are saints - just to live the life for that long!


By the way - someone mentioned the ties at the back of the toque... nowadays some of the Carmels use velcro instead!

[vee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284898159' post='2174511']
Yeah, I love that story. She never actually got to wear the black veil since she only spent 11 months in Carmel before she died, but she was able to make her profession in anticipation - neat huh? I figure as long as I can get clothed again, then I can die because I will be able to die a religious... and anticipate my vows too! lol

One of the older nuns made a joke about St T of the Andes. She said "Eleven months! Let her try 60 years in Carmel!" I think all of the older nuns are saints - just to live the life for that long!

[/quote]
nice goal hahaha!! Thatd be awesome to see you canonized in my lifetime!

Ya its funny how it seems all the Carmelite saints I think of, except Teresa of Avila, died after a rather short stint in Carmel. There definitely needs to be someone canonized who was in for 50-60 years!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284900860' post='2174514']
nice goal hahaha!! Thatd be awesome to see you canonized in my lifetime!

Ya its funny how it seems all the Carmelite saints I think of, except Teresa of Avila, died after a rather short stint in Carmel. There definitely needs to be someone canonized who was in for 50-60 years!
[/quote]


Oh - I'll never be canonized Vee - I know the mechanics of the process too well and I don't qualify - but that doesn't mean I can't become a saint anyway - there are lots of uncanonized saints in heaven.

And I'll never make it to 50 or 60 years in Carmel unless God makes me live to 110 or 120. My first profession won't be until I am at least 61 so add 50 or 50 years to that??? The best I could ask for would be a silver jubilee!

And I am too keen to be with Jesus to hang around here that long!

That's why I plan to get clothed and then offer myself as a sacrifice for the Church - neat plan huh?? Just don't tell my Prioress, she might not like the plan!

[tnavarro61]

the great veils are interesting. are there still communities who still use such veils? what communities?

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284897667' post='2174509']
Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share
[/quote]

again, this is very interesting!! thanks for sharing this one.

i have a couple of questions in my mind: why do extern dress differently those times? how do they live (in those times)?

Edited September 19, 2010 by tnavarro61

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284893063' post='2174501']
Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.


Here is a photo of the foundresses leaving Sydney by ship for Perth in 1935. You can see the extern in the center - with the strange headgear! I am posting two versions of this because in one you can see the nuns better and in the other the whole scene is easier to see.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Shipwindows1935.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Manoora18May35sharper.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

What is mind blowing to me is not the pics but pics outside or inside posing with religious of another community as none were allowed inside the enclosure and the nuns were only allowed out for medical emergencies. We were never seen without the great veil in such cases....I am speaking of my time in Brooklyn Carmel in which we followed the pre vatican II constitutions as they did not accept the declarations and with good reason in my opinion. I was never a fan of the declarations. Sorry i was not clear

[sonofbernard]

I know some French and Spanish Carmel, actually most of the carmel I visited using unveils, the only different I noticed is how they used their toque...

[sonofbernard]

sorry I mean using underveils...

Edited September 19, 2010 by sonofbernard

[carmelite15]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]


Oh so the Carmel in Brooklyn has the Spanish veils now?

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284931515' post='2174682']
Oh so the Carmel in Brooklyn has the Spanish veils now?
[/quote]

Yes, the new Carmel in Brooklyn does .. like these!

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lCjeEOJTLoo/R_VYErN_qoI/AAAAAAAAAb8/KpbIsYsfDig/s320/OCD+Monjas+%281%29.jpg[/img]


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']The Spanish veil was pinned in the front and on the sides where i was but i am sure each Carmel does it differently. I never cared for the Spanish look as it looked like you were wearing a football helmet LOL. [/quote]
Ha! That is true .. it seriously does look a bit like without another veil on top .. Still I've gotten used to it somehow .. maybe from watching too much of the St. Teresa of Avila/&Andes movies!

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']
Thank you for setting me straight about Brooklyn's refoundation. Buffalo is an awesome Carmel. Buffalo was founded from the mexican Carmels and so would have the Spanish veil whereas originally Brooklyn was i think the seventh or ninth Carmel founded in the US. It was founded from Port Tobacco Carmel which later became Baltimore Carmel. The original sisters who came to the US were from the Carmel in Antwerp which came from the French Carmels. The Matthews sisters ( The original Founding Carmelites) still have decendants living in Port Tobacco. Port Tobacco was refounded in the 1970's. One of our hermits, then an OCD, was part of that refounding community.

Laughing and so here is all you never wanted to know about Carmel in the United States.
[/quote]

No, thank you! I love learning about all of this! Seriously, expect a PM from me one of these days with even more questions, lol (no worries though .. i won't ask too much .. prayer comes first of course! ) It's great to have a Carmelite veteran here!

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']
Laughing.. Yes that is a picture of the great veil usually only worn in the parlour or when the the enclosure gate had to be opened for some reason. When workmen would come to the monastery or a priest had to enter the enclosure to give the sacraments a bell would be rung warning the sisters to to keep to their cells and out of sight so usually outside of the parlour we did not wear the great veil. At time of Holy communion when the communion grate would open we would pull down our communion veil so our eyes were hidden... most do not do this anymore.[/quote]

Interesting .. thanks for sharing again! So then there are two different outerveils .. the great veil and the Communion veil? Thanks! I had heard of a parlour veil, but hadn't heard of the name great veil. I guess that's what that is.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[carmelite15]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1285036660' post='2174989']
Yes, the new Carmel in Brooklyn does .. like these!

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lCjeEOJTLoo/R_VYErN_qoI/AAAAAAAAAb8/KpbIsYsfDig/s320/OCD+Monjas+%281%29.jpg[/img]



Ha! That is true .. it seriously does look a bit like without another veil on top .. Still I've gotten used to it somehow .. maybe from watching too much of the St. Teresa of Avila/&Andes movies!



No, thank you! I love learning about all of this! Seriously, expect a PM from me one of these days with even more questions, lol (no worries though .. i won't ask too much .. prayer comes first of course! ) It's great to have a Carmelite veteran here!



Interesting .. thanks for sharing again! So then there are two different outerveils .. the great veil and the Communion veil? Thanks! I had heard of a parlour veil, but hadn't heard of the name great veil. I guess that's what that is.
[/quote]

OH MY GOODNESS I AM SO HAPPY! I REALLY LIKE THE SPANISH VEILS AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT IVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE MOVIES TO MUCH TOO.

[krissylou]

Ohhhh, so in, say, the Teresa of the Andes movie there seemed to me to be a whole whole lot of white veils and it struck me as difficult (and demographically curious) for a high proportion of the sisters to be in formation. (Once I found out that Carmelites typically keep the white veil until final profession that helped some. But still.) That's one thing for, say Valparaiso (and now Elysburg) that is a recent foundation and has unique qualities and so attracts a whole lot of vocations. But for an established monastery ... it seemed very strange to me.

But if lay sisters kept the white veil in perpetuity, that would explain it.

Learn something new every day I do.

The great veils take my breath away. I don't think I could ever use them without tripping and breaking my neck.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1285071457' post='2175054']
Ohhhh, so in, say, the Teresa of the Andes movie there seemed to me to be a whole whole lot of white veils and it struck me as difficult (and demographically curious) for a high proportion of the sisters to be in formation. (Once I found out that Carmelites typically keep the white veil until final profession that helped some. But still.) That's one thing for, say Valparaiso (and now Elysburg) that is a recent foundation and has unique qualities and so attracts a whole lot of vocations. But for an established monastery ... it seemed very strange to me.

But if lay sisters kept the white veil in perpetuity, that would explain it.

Learn something new every day I do.

The great veils take my breath away. I don't think I could ever use them without tripping and breaking my neck.
[/quote]


The thing to remember about the St Teresa of the Andes movie is that the translation was really bad so it wasn't easy to figure out some of the things they were saying. The lay sisters were referred to as 'converts' at one point and that really confused me at first, and then later they called the Novice Mistress 'Teacher' but that is probably because the script used the word 'Maestro' in Spanish, so perhaps it was partly the fault of the script and partly the translation.

And yes, it is a long time for the choir nuns to wear a white veil - 5 years! But that is why the black veil is such a significant event for Carmelites - it is the culmination of all those years of formation, and the symbol of marriage to Christ through solemn vows. First Profession is very significant as well, but as those vows are only temporary, one can still choose to leave at the end of the three years.