More Debate On The Habit

[DameAgnes]

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/cheating-the-habit-of-being

[krissylou]

[quote name='DameAgnes' timestamp='1285705590' post='2176523']
[url="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/cheating-the-habit-of-being"]http://www.firstthin...-habit-of-being[/url]
[/quote]

I have a question.

When did "Secular Institutes" come into being? My impression is that they're a relatively new creature.

Somebody posted a vocations video about secular institutes sometime back (majorly descriptive of me, I know) -- the young woman involved (no distinctive clothing) was in a secular institute that lived in community and had regular times of prayer and all that so her lifestyle was in many ways similar to a religious Sister. She said that the difference was that a Sister was a visible sign of a life set apart and wholly consecrated to God. The vocation to a secular institute is not about being set apart but by engaging with the world and being a part of the world, so infusing it with holiness. And the world needs both forms.

We all know that many religious congregations no longer use a habit, work in a wide variety of ministries, may or may not live in community. When I hear them talk about why their community made those choices, they sound very very similar to that woman talking about the vocation to a secular institute.

Maybe, just maybe, some of these congregations have reformed so that they are essentially secular institutes rather than institutes of consecrated life (forgive me if I'm getting the vocab slightly wrong). That isn't a bad thing -- it sounds like a beautiful vocation -- just a different form of devoting yourself to God. Others by maintaining a habit and placing more emphasis on common apostolates witness in a different way.

And just maybe, as there is a call to return to the distinctive charisms, some of these communities fit more naturally in a secular institute category, but well that didn't exist until relatively recently.

And maybe it's not a question of being better or worse, but that the world needs both forms.

Maybe.

[krissylou]

And MAYBE, if we could understand these as distinct roles, and the world needs both of them, MAYBE a bit of this debate could be defused and it could be a bit less divisive.

I think it was Sister Marie (forgive me if my memory is getting jumbled) who was saying that she wears a modified habit and has found at gatherings of many different Sisters from different congregations that neither the sans-habit Sisters nor the full traditional-habit Sisters will talk to her.

REGARDLESS of the appropriate interpretation of various church documents and directives, that situation is amazingly sad. And clearly there is plenty of fault on all sides, on the conservatives and liberals and undoubtedly there are some "middle-of-the-road"ers who get proud and arrogant about having found THE RIGHT BALANCE -- that's by no means a blanket condemnation of the middle-of-the-roaders but well I doubt they're exempt from the human condition either.

That hostility -- among people who have consecrated themselves to God! -- that seems to me to be so much sadder than ANYTHING that could happen with regard to clothing.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Just my 2 cents:

The idea that a religious sister or brother is 'better' than another [i]because[/i] they wear a habit is pure bunk. It seems as though many go on and on about the importance of a religious habit, and that becomes the focus, not the reason these men and women are joining religious life (which is, of course, [b]because Christ called them, and they answered[/b]).

Of course, I know that [i]I[/i] could never be part of a religious order that doesn't wear a habit. But that's just me. I grew up in Catholic school and rather like the uniform and simplicity. That does not mean that the two Sisters of Charity I know and the Sister of Saint Joseph are not as holy as habited religious sisters and nuns.

ALL of us are here to serve God. I personally think God would want us to serve Him as He wills, habited, non-habit, or naked. Elijah preached naked. And John the Baptist wore an animal skin. It doesn't matter what one wears, but one's soul is like. The outside shouldn't matter as much as it does to so many. We all witness to Christ in different ways.

Dieu vous benisse!

[vee]

it wasnt until I personally met a non habited Sister with a very holy attitude and a habited Sister with a um er a few shall we say questionable beliefs that I got it into my thick skull that habit doesnt always equal holiness and no habit equals less holy. Further comment is clouded by the fact that cherry chocolate ice cream is GOOD! droool....

[krissylou]

99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, I would say that ministering naked is a poor choice.

That may be just me.

(But I doubt it.)

[vee]

What if someone ministers at, and is a member of, a nudist colony though? Would that be the .1% or do they even have ministers? Maybe the .1% is for people who minister in nice warm remote tropical places to native peoples who wear basically a fig leaf so to fit in they also wear a leaf? I think a habit should be more than a fig leaf or leafs although I do agree I should be a nun in a tropical place. Uh what was the debate again?

[Cherie]

I remember the story of a nun who was sitting on a bus when a man came to sit beside her, since there weren't any other seats. Seeing that she was a religious since she was clothed in the habit, he immediately began speaking about how he had fallen away from the Church, etc. They had a very deep spiritual conversation, which led to the man's "re-version" to the Catholic faith. This particular Sister is in a community that no longer wears the habit, and she is glad that they don't anymore, but she was willing to admit that if she weren't wearing the habit on that bus, his conversion probably never would have taken place. I thought it was interesting to note that.

Of course, as they say, "The habit doesn't make the monk." And yes, wearing a habit could lead to an amount of spiritual pride. Then again, just about [i]anything[/i] can be abused and lead us to sin. Personally, I think the spiritual benefits of wearing a habit FAR outweigh any benefit of not wearing one.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285722208' post='2176607']
I remember the story of a nun who was sitting on a bus when a man came to sit beside her, since there weren't any other seats. Seeing that she was a religious since she was clothed in the habit, he immediately began speaking about how he had fallen away from the Church, etc. They had a very deep spiritual conversation, which led to the man's "re-version" to the Catholic faith. This particular Sister is in a community that no longer wears the habit, and she is glad that they don't anymore, but she was willing to admit that if she weren't wearing the habit on that bus, his conversion probably never would have taken place. I thought it was interesting to note that.

Of course, as they say, "The habit doesn't make the monk." And yes, wearing a habit could lead to an amount of spiritual pride. Then again, just about [i]anything[/i] can be abused and lead us to sin. [b]Personally, I think the spiritual benefits of wearing a habit FAR outweigh any benefit of not wearing one.[/b]
[/quote]

This is my opinion as well.

I remember hearing a story about a priest and his clerics. He was out in public one day, wearing his clerics, when a poor man approached him and kissed his hands. The priest was taken a back and said to the man, "You don't have to do that, I'm just an ordinary man-- like you." The poor man looked at him with dismay and said, "Father, I did that not as a sign of respect for you, but as a sign of respect for your anointed hands-- your priesthood. Don't give yourself so much credit."

Part of humility on behalf of those consecrated God comes from allowing others to praise God's work in them. Priests and religious become outward signs of God's grace and presence in the world. It evokes a desire among the faithful to honor that, to do some good deed for God. Whatever is given to them really isn't given to their own person, but it is God's. As a religious, everything she is belongs to God and everything that someone does for her is truly done for Jesus.

[Cherie]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1285723030' post='2176611'] The poor man looked at him with dismay and said, "Father, I did that not as a sign of respect for you, but as a sign of respect for your anointed hands-- your priesthood. Don't give yourself so much credit."

[/quote]

I love it!

It's very true - the priest or Sister is representing something far more important than themselves. That is something I admire from the community I was a member of - they had a great respect for the habit, and we knew that it wasn't because of ourselves, but because of our [i]consecration.[/i] We were representing the Church and God, so any honor shown us because of our habit went right back to the honor and glory of God. It was actually very humbling to hear what people would say seeing us in our habit, especially children. I remember a young child at a zoo pointing at me and saying to her mother, "Mommy it's Mary! It's Mary! Does she have the baby Jesus?" Every time I would hear something like that, it would make me realize that I'm representing the Church, so my behavior must be exactly what I'd want our beloved Church to show forth to others--most especially [i]charity.[/i]

[Ephrem Augustine]

I was at banquet for a commemoration of an historical event. I was in habit, to represent the order.

anyways
some time during the conversation, a man, who had already been speaking very ignorantly (although it seemed his ignorance with innocent and well intentioned, not snobbish), said something to the effect...
"Yeah at the Vatican Council the Church told all the nuns to get rid of their habits."
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif[/img]

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' timestamp='1285782966' post='2176775']
I was at banquet for a commemoration of an historical event. I was in habit, to represent the order.

anyways
some time during the conversation, a man, who had already been speaking very ignorantly (although it seemed his ignorance with innocent and well intentioned, not snobbish), said something to the effect...
"Yeah at the Vatican Council the Church told all the nuns to get rid of their habits."
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Obviously he repeated hearsay vs. what the documents actually said.

[Micah]

Our understanding of the habit has no doubt developed over time, but initially the habit was a simple rejection of excess wealth or clothing. I was reading about St. Paulina yesterday, and St. Jerome argued with her that her extreme modesty might bring on vanity or envy in her, but she responded that if her rejection of wealth brings on a spiritual conflict, then she is fighting the good fight. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285762490' post='2176686']
I love it!

It's very true - the priest or Sister is representing something far more important than themselves. That is something I admire from the community I was a member of - they had a great respect for the habit, and we knew that it wasn't because of ourselves, but because of our [i]consecration.[/i] We were representing the Church and God, so any honor shown us because of our habit went right back to the honor and glory of God. It was actually very humbling to hear what people would say seeing us in our habit, especially children. I remember a young child at a zoo pointing at me and saying to her mother, "Mommy it's Mary! It's Mary! Does she have the baby Jesus?" Every time I would hear something like that, it would make me realize that I'm representing the Church, so my behavior must be exactly what I'd want our beloved Church to show forth to others--most especially [i]charity.[/i]
[/quote]


When I was very, very young, I once almost embarrased by parents to death. After seeing a group of Amish women, I cried (and pointed) "Look, Mommy! Pilgrims!"

Thankfully that never happened with rleigious sisters.

[Cherie]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1285841528' post='2176898']
When I was very, very young, I once almost embarrased by parents to death. After seeing a group of Amish women, I cried (and pointed) "Look, Mommy! Pilgrims!"

Thankfully that never happened with rleigious sisters.
[/quote]

Another Sister encountered a Southern African American man and his young son at the grocery store. The son pointed to the Sister and asked his father in a very loud voice, "Dad, what's that?" When his father ignored him, he asked again loudly, "Dad, what's that?!" After being ignored again, the son cried out in desperation, "DADDY, WHAT'S THAT?!" The father turned to his son and said in a very thick Alabama accent, "I don't know, son, but I know it's good!"

Oh goodness, there are so many more stories! lol I could create a thread just for them!

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285849594' post='2176912']
Another Sister encountered a Southern African American man and his young son at the grocery store. The son pointed to the Sister and asked his father in a very loud voice, "Dad, what's that?" When his father ignored him, he asked again loudly, "Dad, what's that?!" After being ignored again, the son cried out in desperation, "DADDY, WHAT'S THAT?!" The father turned to his son and said in a very thick Alabama accent, "I don't know, son, but I know it's good!"

[b]Oh goodness, there are so many more stories! lol I could create a thread just for them!
[/b][/quote]

You should!!!

[tnavarro61]

I don't have any experiences, or do i know some, regarding the religious habits. But I could share this little incident. We were preparing for a stage play, and that play is portraying nuns. We had problems with the habits because they were expensive. What i have in mind is to portray the Carmelites' great veil. But when someone almost ran our money away, the problem intensified. I was talking with my classmate and she said it would be better if we portray habitless nuns. I said no, I want them to be identified.

Another incident, my brother almost pulled a sister's veil because he's curious to see what's underneath. (was it a nightmare for nuns? ) He has special needs and is very fond of nuns!

I love sisters and brothers and priests in habits. People here do love them too. The Sister Servants of the Virgin of Matara are known in our place, and people always smile to see them in habits. I suppose they are thinking, "I cannot believe this; I'm talking to nuns!" People are happy when they can approach to nuns. I cannot forget the scene one Ash Wednesday: a Daughter of St Paul novice embracing a beggar. That was the most touching scene I have scene.

My position with this one is the same with fifth post. Whenever i see "nuns-in-pantaloons", or "habitless nuns" I throw my judging stone right away - that nun's liberal. Stay away!
I realized I am wrong in thinking that. I'm falling into stereotyping. They're still consecrated sisters. They're still my sisters. The best thing that I can do is to pray for them. But of course, when that habitless nun started saying, "Nuns must be ordained!" or "Men has the right to become nuns!", that's a different story!

--edit--
Haha, i said, nuns-in-pantaloons - I'm sorry! I used the Filipino word for pantaloons - pantalon (pantaloons is my own term haha, it's like mixing Filipino and English! . but i won't change it I'm proud of my native tongue.

Edited September 30, 2010 by tnavarro61

[vee]

[quote name='tnavarro61' timestamp='1285854400' post='2176920']
--edit--
Haha, i said, nuns-in-pantaloons - I'm sorry! I used the Filipino word for pantaloons - pantalon (pantaloons is my own term haha, it's like mixing Filipino and English! . but i won't change it I'm proud of my native tongue.
[/quote]

Phatmass has some silly fiddlers and one of them is to change p a n t s to pantaloons

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='tnavarro61' timestamp='1285854400' post='2176920']

Another incident, my brother almost pulled a sister's veil because he's curious to see what's underneath. (was it a nightmare for nuns? ) He has special needs and is very fond of nuns!

I[/quote]


The principal and campus minister of my old high school are both Felicians (called Fel-i-cans, by some, Feli-cians by everyone else). The principal wears a full habit, and the campus minister wears skirts and shirts.

They came to my parish once. I was so scared I nearly jumped out of my cassock--the principal didn't have her veil on! They are both wonderful religious sisters, even if they don't dress the same. And they live in the same convent...so I always thought it was strange they had different 'habits.' Pun completely intended.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1285881562' post='2177028']
The principal and campus minister of my old high school are both Felicians (called Fel-i-cans, by some, Feli-cians by everyone else). The principal wears a full habit, and the campus minister wears skirts and shirts.

They came to my parish once. I was so scared I nearly jumped out of my cassock--the principal didn't have her veil on! They are both wonderful religious sisters, even if they don't dress the same. And they live in the same convent...so I always thought it was strange they had different 'habits.' Pun completely intended.


[/quote]

I think when many Orders changed their habits after Vatican II, at least some Orders gave Sisters the choice of whether to retain the old habit or wear a new modified habit.

Personally, I don't find it unusual to see Sisters of the same Order in different habits--although, like you, I would be very surprised if I saw a Sister who normally wears a veil suddenly not wearing a veil. But, I think the reason the different habits don't surprise me is that the Order of Sisters who live across the street from me (the SCC's), wear modified habits and always wear veils (and they are OBVIOUSLY habits--they don't look like lay clothes with a pin)--but the habits aren't identical. There is a winter habit (black and white) and a summer habit (light blue), and there is a black jacket worn with the winter habit that might or might not be worn depending on the weather. Some Sisters never change to a summer habit, but simply wear a white blouse, black skirt, and black veil in summer, without the black jacket. Nursing sisters wear white, even white veils. Sisters in South America and the Philippines wear slightly different habits. Also, I have been seeing a "new" variation on the winter habit that has a black sweater that is buttoned up almost to the top, with just the white collar showing--to me it looks more like a habit. I've seen this mostly on younger Sisters, but on some older Sisters, as well. The Sisters' veils, however, are identical, except that novices (and nursing Sisters) wear white veils.

I've never asked the reason for the variety of habits, but my guess is--poverty. They wear the habits they have until they wear out. Any wholesale change in habits would mean extra cost. For example, as I've mentioned before, although these Sisters are located in areas with snow and cold, the Order depends entirely on donations for winter coats. Most of the Sisters wear black coats, but if no black donated coats fit, they wear whatever color is available. (However, it's normally a muted color--not bright orange or red.) So, to this Order, living frugally apparently is more important than looking exactly alike, although it's not as if they wear whatever they want--there are simply variations in the habit.

Personally, although I have a hard time seeing true lay clothes as a habit, "my" Sisters, in their modified habits, are obviously religious Sisters to me. It may be what you get used to seeing, but because I don't see Sisters in long habits, "my" Sisters look like "real" Sisters as far as I am concerned. And, I know the larger community treats them with the respect they would give Sisters whose habits reached the ground. However, as I mentioned, even though the habit is modified, it is so different from lay clothes, and is so simple, that I have never questioned the holiness of the Sisters whatever their habits look like--and never questioned that it is a habit, not lay clothes.

Interesting factoid: If you look on the Web site of the Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate in Mishiwaka, Indiana, you'll see that many of the older Sisters wear modified habits, but the younger Sisters usually wear more traditional-type habits. Again, I don't know if the difference in habits is a choice, or if, as part of poverty, an older Sister wears the habit she has until it wears out. But, it appears that this community may be trending toward a more traditional habit.