Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1289993523' post='2187605']
That kinda reminds me of CS Lewis' [i]The Last Battle[/i], where it's explained that the things on earth are the shadow, and the reality is in Heaven.

Anyway, if John 6:63 is supposed to be a clarification that He wasn't speaking literally (though I still don't see that as linguistically the case), shouldn't He have said that part earlier, when the Jews first understood Him to be speaking literally? But He doesn't do that. He instead repeats it, slightly more forcefully, if I remember correctly, and then they walk away and then He turns to the Apostles and asks if they're leaving, too. That's when he says that verse. If He didn't mean to be taken literally, though, He should have clarified when the people first misunderstood, because otherwise He's allowing them to walk away based on a misunderstanding. That doesn't strike me as something God would do. Letting them walk away if they've understood correctly, OK, we have free will after all, but passing up the chance to correct them and letting them believe something that isn't true? I don't think so. I also don't think it fits well with John 3, where He's speaking of being born again. Nicodemus misunderstands Him, and Jesus immediately clarifies instead of just repeating what He'd said before. I'd think He'd do the same if they misunderstood Him in John 6, especially since it's a matter of great importance, a matter of eternal importance.
[/quote]

I think that even if he clarified what he had meant then they still would not have believed Him. Jesus had to be very careful about what he said because if he came out and said that He was God then the non believers would have killed him right then and there. In the gospels He even tells this to some of the non-believers...he basically says, "You want to kill me don't you". But theres really no telling for sure. Even some of his Apostles doubted him in many ways. Heck, one of his apostles was a devil (Judas). I think the only reason why he clarified with his Apostles is because some of them were believing him at that present time.

Edited November 17, 2010 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

I just noticed that someone put the warning sign under my profile picture.

I think that the Church is Jesus Christ, and those who Believe and Love Him. Those who Believe and Love Him are parts of the Body of Christ [1Corinthians 12:27]. And Jesus works through his body parts [1Corinthians 12:4-6].

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1290013633' post='2187637']
I think that even if he clarified what he had meant then they still would not have believed Him. Jesus had to be very careful about what he said because if he came out and said that He was God then the non believers would have killed him right then and there. In the gospels He even tells this to some of the non-believers...he basically says, "You want to kill me don't you". But theres really no telling for sure. Even some of his Apostles doubted him in many ways. Heck, one of his apostles was a devil (Judas). I think the only reason why he clarified with his Apostles is because some of them were believing him at that present time.
[/quote]
Yes, I'm sure some would walk away anyway, but it's one thing to allow them to walk away after clarifying, and another to have them walk away with a faulty understanding when there was clearly the opportunity to clarify before then if He'd meant it to be not literal.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1289969853' post='2187530']
Just for curiosity, since you said [i]'[post='2187490']Physical bodies get changed every number of years. The body I have now is not made of the same material as the one when I was a child. It is also very likely that the material of our bodies has at some time been part of another persons body. So is it really likely that the resurrected body is made of the same material that made our mortal bodies at some stage? I don't think it is and what's more I can't see why it should matter when our bodies have changed numerous times throughout our natural life already. I think what Jesus means is that we are ingesting his supernatural body of immortality which he will raise up.
[/post][/i]
-----------------

In short, you are saying that your 3 year-old body is not the same 'material' of whatever you have now. And much more to say, your 'resurrected' body will never be the same 'bodily-material' as you have now. Do I get it correctly?
[color="#ff0000"]Yes[/color]

So how about the body of Jesus Christ when he was still a 3 year old baby? Do you think he has the same bodily-material when he becomes 33 years old? Or do you think he has the same 'bodily material' before and after his death?
[color="#ff0000"]No[/color]
Now if you answer is…..

Answer 1. 'He has the same body before and after his resurrection and since the beginning of his childhood'.
[color="#ff0000"]No[/color]
Question 1:

Do 'resurrected body' really feel pain and fatique?
[color="#ff0000"]No[/color], [color="#ff0000"]it's invincible[/color]

Answer 2. If he does not have the same body (meaning His resurrected body is different from his mortal body).
[color="#ff0000"]Yes, it's very different it didn't come from the dust it came from God himself[/color]
Question 2:

What bodily material of Jesus Christ you are now calling as 'the Eucharist'? Is it his body before he died or after his resurrection? Or it is his dead body?
[color="#ff0000"]His resurrected body[/color]! [color="#ff0000"]His physical body like ours only served the purpose of his earthly mission. God as a man to show us how to live as wo/men and to demonstrate his love for us for our redemption.[/color]
What do you think?
[/quote]
Jesus was a hypostatic union. Both Human and Divine. What happened to his fingernails, hair and shed skin throughout his life? 'As a human from the dust he came and to the dust he should logically return.' Now about what became of his crucified and final physical body. Good question! Integrated into his supernatural resurrected body, maybe? But then he was able to pass through a locked door, so it would have had to have been altered significantly and therefore could not be considered the same. An enigma! Probably not important what happened, only that he showed us the way to immortality.

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1289974264' post='2187580']
Well I think hes gonna take the Transubstantiation route.
[/quote]

Some confusion arises by what transubstantiation means. We have said that physically (the accidents) the bread and wine is unchanged. So substantial change must be referring to something else. A hat is not very substantial as far as material objects are concerned but if your life depends on it to keep you alive in the desert then you will be careful not to lose or damage it. It will become very substantial to you. Bread and wine is not much it may be important if it stops you from dying from starvation, but when it becomes the resurrected body and blood which will bring you to an eternal life of happiness then it becomes very substantial. That's why consubstantiation is a silly argument and I dismissed it very early on. How can bread be substantially compared to God?

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1289993523' post='2187605']
That kinda reminds me of CS Lewis' [i]The Last Battle[/i], where it's explained that the things on earth are the shadow, and the reality is in Heaven.

Anyway, if John 6:63 is supposed to be a clarification that He wasn't speaking literally (though I still don't see that as linguistically the case), shouldn't He have said that part earlier, when the Jews first understood Him to be speaking literally? But He doesn't do that. He instead repeats it, slightly more forcefully, if I remember correctly, and then they walk away and then He turns to the Apostles and asks if they're leaving, too. That's when he says that verse. If He didn't mean to be taken literally, though, He should have clarified when the people first misunderstood, because otherwise He's allowing them to walk away based on a misunderstanding. That doesn't strike me as something God would do. Letting them walk away if they've understood correctly, OK, we have free will after all, but passing up the chance to correct them and letting them believe something that isn't true? I don't think so. I also don't think it fits well with John 3, where He's speaking of being born again. Nicodemus misunderstands Him, and Jesus immediately clarifies instead of just repeating what He'd said before. I'd think He'd do the same if they misunderstood Him in John 6, especially since it's a matter of great importance, a matter of eternal importance.
[/quote]
I agree! That's why there has to be something more significant than Spirit alone. I have sensed the Spiritual presence of Jesus at other times during the Mass but the Eucharist is substantially more. (excuse the pun)

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1290010279' post='2187631']
If that is the case, this Eucharist 'transubstantiates' and becomes a true body of Christ because of your 'faith' and not because it is the true body of Christ in its real sense.

As I have said before, 'faith has no power against the truth'. While it is true that sometimes thru the eyes of faith, a lie can be seen as truth but still, a lie will remain a lie. And no matter how strong your faith is, such faith will never change a lie to become truth because, truth is the power of God and not your faith. While on the other hand, truth will remain truth whether you are a believer or not because, nothing can go against the truth since Truth is God.

I hope you can hear me now, brothers.
[/quote]

Faith is the most powerful force in the Universe! Many times Jesus made the statement "Because of your faith you are healed." Faith is what overcomes our blindness to God. Without faith we are nothing and will be lost. Never underestimate the power of faith. 'If your faith is strong enough you can command the mountain to move from here to there and it will obey.'

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1290022034' post='2187661']
I just noticed that someone put the warning sign under my profile picture.

[/quote]

Hopefully not because of questioning the Eucharist. Most Catholics in my Parish would not be able to give a proper Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist.Never the less know that you are loved!

Edited November 17, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1289954050' post='2187490']

Does this mean that if a person partakes in a Eucharist only for tradition or to mock mean that the bread and wine cease to be Jesus? I personally think that the recipient has to be true or it ceases to be Jesus, but some Catholics believe that even if satanists take the host from the Church to perform evil acts it still remains the body of Jesus. Do you know if the Church has a view on this?
[/quote]
Bump. By the power invested in the priest the bread and wine is consecrated. Through our [b]faith[/b] we unite in communion with Christ. If someone does not have faith will the Eucharist still be valid, if so in what way? What will it do for the blind sinner? Does anyone know the Church' view?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1290026512' post='2187677']
Yes, I'm sure some would walk away anyway, but it's one thing to allow them to walk away after clarifying, and another to have them walk away with a faulty understanding when there was clearly the opportunity to clarify before then if He'd meant it to be not literal.
[/quote]


I think Jesus knew that by saying something then that eventually people in the future would have a greater understanding of what he meant. His mission wasnt to convert a bunch of people to Jesus Believers then. He had a few apostles who would spread this later on. And it would grow and grow throughout the centuries. Not only as a religion, but people would grow stonger in Faith based on what they have learned from all the believers throughout the centuries. All the theologians and christian writers have passed these ideas down to people in the future. And now we can grow into a greater understanding and relationship with Jesus because of that. But it all traces back to Jesus. Its just taking mankind a long time to grow.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290032153' post='2187698']
Bump. By the power invested in the priest the bread and wine is consecrated. Through our [b]faith[/b] we unite in communion with Christ. If someone does not have faith will the Eucharist still be valid, if so in what way? What will it do for the blind sinner? Does anyone know the Church' view?
[/quote]

A priest does not have any more power than anyone else. We are all parts of the body of Christ [1Corinthians 12:27]. Why? because the holy spirit has instilled certain gifts within us. And we can not be a complete body without each other. And these "Powers" so you call them...are not of us...but of the holy spirit working through us. So Jesus doesnt just operate within a priest. He operates within all of us.

This "Power" of transubstantiation is not scriptural.

Edited November 17, 2010 by infinitelord1

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1289954623' post='2187493']
Is it possible to speak metaphorically and literally at the same time? If so then please give me an example.[/quote]
No. Jesus Christ was speaking literally.
Why would He willingly lose so many followers over a misunderstood metaphor?

Christ didn't say His flesh was [b]like[/b] real food, and His blood [b]like[/b] real drink; He said, "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."

[quote]I think he clarified in John 6:63.[/quote]
Spirit does [b]not[/b] equal metaphor. Jesus Christ is truly present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Most Holy Eucharist, and His flesh provides us with real spiritual nourishment, but that does not deny the Real Presence.

[quote]How do we know Paul wasnt speaking metaphorically?
[/quote]
There's nothing there to indicate such. He said those who receive unworthily, "eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord." That implies the body of the the Lord is really present, whether they discern it or not, not just that they don't follow the symbolism.

Reyb denies that there ever was a real historical Jesus, and claims the Gospels themselves are nothing but metaphor, if you want to go down that route,

I'll stick with the teachings of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which have always taught the truth of the real presence.

Do you really think you know better than the successors of the Apostles what Jesus meant?

Here's some quotes from the early Church Fathers concerning the Eucharist:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002frs.asp"]The Eucharist is No Mere Symbol[/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290032153' post='2187698']
Bump. By the power invested in the priest the bread and wine is consecrated. Through our [b]faith[/b] we unite in communion with Christ. If someone does not have faith will the Eucharist still be valid, if so in what way?
[/quote]
Whether or not the recipient believes or has Faith has no effect whatsoever on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

He who receives without Faith may eat and drink judgment on himself, but it is the unbelieving communicant who is effected, not Christ.

Christ is not only present if we believe in Him. Then Christ's presence becomes purely subjective.

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1290036468' post='2187711']
A priest does not have any more power than anyone else. We are all parts of the body of Christ [1Corinthians 12:27]. Why? because the holy spirit has instilled certain gifts within us. And we can not be a complete body without each other. And these "Powers" so you call them...are not of us...but of the holy spirit working through us. So Jesus doesnt just operate within a priest. He operates within all of us.

This "Power" of transubstantiation is not scriptural.
[/quote]
Your assertions are not Scriptural.

And Corinthians does nothing to justify your position. The feet do not have the same powers as the head, yet both are part of the body. Not all members of the mystical body of Christ have the gifts of the ordained priesthood.

Seems you've gone protestant. At least be honest and change your "religion" in your profile from "Catholic."