Who Was Paul?

[southern california guy]

I'm no great bible scholar. Who was Paul and why did he actually contradict Jesus. Here's a quote that I got from another website.

[color="#000080"]Paul admitted being a persecutor of Jesus (pbuh) followers. Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his knowledge of him is limited as can be seen through his apistles. Jesus (pbuh) never spoke of him or anyone like him, nor were there any prophecies warning us of such a person. What better way to destroy a religion you oppose then to change its doctrine? People accept Paul not through investigation, and certainly not by following the Bible's command to test everything (1John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21), but rather simply because he made his way into the Bible. Jesus (pbuh) made it clear that the only way to attain salvation was by keeping the commandments (Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25), yet Paul gave everyone a "free gift" of faith alone. Paul has successfully managed to steer billions of people from the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh). He turned it from Jesus (pbuh) religion, to a religion all about Jesus (pbuh). [/color]

Thoughts? Comments?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290357432' post='2188365']
I'm no great bible scholar. Who was Paul and why did he actually contradict Jesus. Here's a quote that I got from another website.

[color="#000080"]Paul admitted being a persecutor of Jesus (pbuh) followers. Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his knowledge of him is limited as can be seen through his apistles. Jesus (pbuh) never spoke of him or anyone like him, nor were there any prophecies warning us of such a person. What better way to destroy a religion you oppose then to change its doctrine? People accept Paul not through investigation, and certainly not by following the Bible's command to test everything (1John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21), but rather simply because he made his way into the Bible. Jesus (pbuh) made it clear that the only way to attain salvation was by keeping the commandments (Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25), yet Paul gave everyone a "free gift" of faith alone. Paul has successfully managed to steer billions of people from the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh). He turned it from Jesus (pbuh) religion, to a religion all about Jesus (pbuh). [/color]

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]

Huh?

~Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

You need to find better websites to hang out at.

Jesus hand picked Paul just as he hand picked the Apostles. I'm not going to tell Jesus he didn't know what he was doing.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

This is an Islamic thought process. Muslims believe that Paul caused a stray from the true religion and message of Jesus. They believe that Jesus was a prophet and that Jesus himself DID NOT call himself God or God incarnate but that he is just a messenger. Paul, according to the Muslims, is the one that starting saying that Jesus was God incarnate.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1290359884' post='2188376']
You need to find better websites to hang out at.

Jesus hand picked Paul just as he hand picked the Apostles. I'm not going to tell Jesus he didn't know what he was doing.
[/quote]

I'm confused. Paul wasn't one of the disciples that traveled with Jesus was he? Here's something about Paul from Wikipedia:


[b]Early ministry[/b]

After his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, where Acts states he was healed of his blindness and baptized by Ananias of Damascus.[21] Paul says that it was in Damascus that he barely escaped death [2Cor. 11:32]. Paul also says that he then went first to Arabia, and then came back to Damascus.[Gal. 1:17] He describes in Galatians how three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem. There he met James and stayed with Simon Peter for 15 days.[Gal. 1:13–24]

[color="#FF0000"]There is no explicit written record that Paul had known Jesus personally prior to the Crucifixion yet it is unlikely that he was not acutely aware of Jesus' ministry or his trial before the Chief Priest.[/color] Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from any person, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.[Gal. 1:11–12]. Paul claimed almost total independence from the "mother church" in Jerusalem.[11] and yet was eager and diligent to bring material support from the various budding Gentile churches that he planted to the less affluent mother church at Jerusalem. In his writings Paul persistently relied on the persecutions he endured bot physical beatings and viscous slanders, from Jews and Gentiles to claim proximity and union with Jesus and as an irrefutable validation of his preaching and teaching.

Paul's narrative in Galatians states that 14 years after his conversion he went again to Jerusalem.[Gal. 2:1–10] It is not completely known what happened during these so-called "unknown years," but both Acts and Galatians provide some partial details.[22] At the end of this time, Barnabas went to find Paul and brought him back to Antioch. [Acts 11:26]

When a famine occurred in Judea, around 45–46,[23] Paul and Barnabas journeyed to Jerusalem to deliver financial support from the Antioch community.[24] According to Acts, Antioch had become an alternative center for Christians following the dispersion of the believers after the death of Stephen. It was in Antioch that the followers of Jesus were first called "Christians."[Ac. 11:26]

Edited November 22, 2010 by southern california guy

[CatherineM]

You need to read the 9th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles. Jesus hit Paul with a bolt of lightning striking him blind. He most assuredly chose Paul.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290357432' post='2188365']
I'm no great bible scholar. Who was Paul and why did he actually contradict Jesus. Here's a quote that I got from another website.

[color="#000080"]Paul admitted being a persecutor of Jesus (pbuh) followers. Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his knowledge of him is limited as can be seen through his apistles. Jesus (pbuh) never spoke of him or anyone like him, nor were there any prophecies warning us of such a person. What better way to destroy a religion you oppose then to change its doctrine? People accept Paul not through investigation, and certainly not by following the Bible's command to test everything (1John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21), but rather simply because he made his way into the Bible. Jesus (pbuh) made it clear that the only way to attain salvation was by keeping the commandments (Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25), yet Paul gave everyone a "free gift" of faith alone. Paul has successfully managed to steer billions of people from the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh). He turned it from Jesus (pbuh) religion, to a religion all about Jesus (pbuh). [/color]

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]

The law exists to make us conscious of our sin... [Romans 3:10] + [Romans 3:20]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290361155' post='2188380']
This is an Islamic thought process. Muslims believe that Paul caused a stray from the true religion and message of Jesus. They believe that Jesus was a prophet and that Jesus himself DID NOT call himself God or God incarnate but that he is just a messenger. Paul, according to the Muslims, is the one that starting saying that Jesus was God incarnate.
[/quote]

This is true! The use of the initials PBUH after every reference to Jesus indicates that the text is from an Islamic site. Muslims hold that Jesus was only a prophet. They use the PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) after every prophet except Mohammed after which they use the initials SAW. these are terms of respect and endearment. Muslims are our neighbours that we must love as ourselves and they worship the same God, but sadly they seem to have got their facts badly misconstrued.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290465371' post='2188655']
This is true! The use of the initials PBUH after every reference to Jesus indicates that the text is from an Islamic site. Muslims hold that Jesus was only a prophet. Muslims are our neighbours that we must love as ourselves and they worship the same God, but sadly they seem to have got their facts badly misconstrued.
[/quote]

Yeah, they say Jesus was a prophet. Apparently, a lying prophet.

~Sternhauser

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290465554' post='2188658']
Yeah, they say Jesus was a prophet. Apparently, a lying prophet.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

That is incorrect. They do not believe what [b]was claimed[/b] (The Bible I suppose) [b]he said[/b]. It would be contradicting to recognise him as a prophet, but not believe what he himself taught. I suppose when we have all our facts perfectly correct we can criticise. In the mean time we must pray for our own guidance as well as theirs to truth. There is nothing wrong with us believing that we are [b]much much[/b] closer than they though. so long as we don't forget to love and respect them.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290357432' post='2188365']
I'm no great bible scholar. Who was Paul and why did he actually contradict Jesus. Here's a quote that I got from another website.

[color="#000080"]Paul admitted being a persecutor of Jesus (pbuh) followers. Paul never met Jesus (pbuh) and his knowledge of him is limited as can be seen through his apistles. Jesus (pbuh) never spoke of him or anyone like him, nor were there any prophecies warning us of such a person. What better way to destroy a religion you oppose then to change its doctrine? People accept Paul not through investigation, and certainly not by following the Bible's command to test everything (1John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21), but rather simply because he made his way into the Bible. Jesus (pbuh) made it clear that the only way to attain salvation was by keeping the commandments (Luke 10:25-28, Luke 18:18-25), yet Paul gave everyone a "free gift" of faith alone. Paul has successfully managed to steer billions of people from the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh). He turned it from Jesus (pbuh) religion, to a religion all about Jesus (pbuh). [/color]

Thoughts? Comments?
[/quote]
You trust the [mod]"Muslims" would be a better word to use here. -dUSt[/mod] to have a better understanding of Christianity than the Christians??

They deny the truth of much of the Gosples, including Christ's death and resurrection.

Edited November 30, 2010 by dUSt
Ambiguously derogatory term for Muslims.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290466113' post='2188661']
That is incorrect. They do not believe what [b]was claimed[/b] (The Bible I suppose) [b]he said[/b]. It would be contradicting to recognise him as a prophet, but not believe what he himself taught. I suppose when we have all our facts perfectly correct we can criticise. In the mean time we must pray for our own guidance as well as theirs to truth. There is nothing wrong with us believing that we are [b]much much[/b] closer than they though. so long as we don't forget to love and respect them.
[/quote]

Right. They haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to talking about what Jesus "actually" said, unless they have a secret, extra-Biblical source of what He said and did.

It is an act of charity to tell someone what he believes is a lie, when it is. Either their belief system is based on a lying person's teachings, an insane person's teachings, or it is a religion founded by God Himself. Catholics may not believe the last explanation. It is not an act of disrespect to say any of those things.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1290357432' post='2188365']
I'm no great bible scholar.
[/quote]
Obviously not. Start by reading the four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, and the absurdity of the Islamic claims will be apparent. Muslims don't read the Bible, and they're hoping you won't either.

Where exactly does St. Paul contradict Jesus?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290466245' post='2188662']
You trust the Mohammedans to have a better understanding of Christianity than the Christians??

They deny the truth of much of the Gosples, including Christ's death and resurrection.
[/quote]
I got the impression he didn't realise the source. We are all guilty of being misled by not being aware of our sources! '[i]The earth is cursed because of you[/i]' Who's you? answer '[i]man[/i]'! Which man? '[i][b]All[/b] of mankind[/i]'! Why all mankind? [i]Because of the nature of mankind[/i]! What's wrong with man's nature? [i]For one, his propensity to be seduced into hatred of those who are different or disagree with his beliefs rather than pray for them and lead them gently by love and their own free choice. [/i][b]Hatred belongs to Satan![/b]
Jesus said "But I say to you love your enemy." I don't think he wasn't talking about one that wants to blow you up. You are permitted to use lethal force to defend yourself and the faith.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1290467910' post='2188666']
Right. They haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to talking about what Jesus "actually" said, unless they have a secret, extra-Biblical source of what He said and did.

It is an act of charity to tell someone what he believes is a lie, when it is. Either their belief system is based on a lying person's teachings, an insane person's teachings, or it is a religion founded by God Himself. Catholics may not believe the last explanation. It is not an act of disrespect to say any of those things.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I didn't say it wasn't! I think Muslims would be well aware that we disagree with them. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that we would therefore believe that what they believed are untruths. And we can tell them that, as long as we do it lovingly and diplomatically.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1290466245' post='2188662']
You trust the Mohammedans to have a better understanding of Christianity than the Christians??

They deny the truth of much of the Gosples, including Christ's death and resurrection.
[/quote]

To be honest, a Muslim scholar named Zakir Naik knows the bible better than anyone I know and has much of the bible memorised. He even won a debate against a Christian scholar. It's on youtube for free viewing. Muslims know the bible VERY well.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PcKZnmBnQVE[/url]

Edited November 22, 2010 by Hinter dem Horizont

[john654]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1290465371' post='2188655']
This is true! The use of the initials PBUH after every reference to Jesus indicates that the text is from an Islamic site. Muslims hold that Jesus was only a prophet. They use the PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) after every prophet except Mohammed after which they use the initials SAW. these are terms of respect and endearment. Muslims are our neighbours that we must love as ourselves and they worship the same God, but sadly they seem to have got their facts badly misconstrued.
[/quote]

You say, "and they worship the same God". I may open a can of worms, but, I reject their god. I don't know him. Their god is not the God of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament. They are a false man made religion. Their god is mean and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

John

[Hinter dem Horizont]

[quote name='john654' timestamp='1290470446' post='2188676']
You say, "and they worship the same God". I may open a can of worms, but, I reject their god. I don't know him. Their god is not the God of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament. They are a false man made religion. Their god is mean and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

John
[/quote]

I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Hinter dem Horizont

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1290471666' post='2188688']
I'm sorry friend. Read the Qur'an. Jesus is in there, Moses, and Abraham. It's the same God throughout all the ages. Just a different way of worshiping Him.
[/quote]

Just like the Book of Mormon.

~Sternhauser