Harry Potter

[Nunsense]

Well, if we were talking theology here, then I would say a definite 'no' to Harry Potter. But we aren't. And as far as entertainment goes, I actually dislike the so-called 'Christian' Lord of the Rings and even though I have tried to watch it many times over the years, I have yet to sit through a whole movie - and I prefer HP for pure entertainment value. I have been told over and over again by friends that LOTR is much better, but it is personal preference. I couldn't even get through the LOTR books and yet I read all 7 of the HP ones.

I thought HP was well written and entertaining and fun. The books are better than the movies to me because the movies come across as a lot darker but that is artistic licence I think. In the books, I definitely saw the fight between good and evil a lot better, and although, yes, there were rules broken, let's not deify rules either. Even Jesus broke rules when it suited His purposes. I am in no way comparing Jesus with HP here but I am just pointing out that rules are rules.... David took the sacred bread, Jesus healed on the Sabbath etc etc.

That all being said, if I were allowing my child to read HP or watch a HP film, I would be doing some advance preparation in the way of explanations about the fantasy magic vs the real world of withcraft/demons, right vs wrong, the ends do not justify the means etc. Kids have fantasy worlds like the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and their TV shows are full of talking animals and all manner of fantasy creatures... without trying to strip them of all of this, it is good to help them see the difference between reality and fantasy and between the natural and supernatural in a way that is consistent with our faith. I would also consider the emotional and spiritual maturity of the child before allowing them to see the movies because they can be very scary... but then so can some of the Disney movies too! So, once again, parental guidance needed here!

For an adult, I don't personally see anything wrong with the movies. I fully intend to see the last one when it comes out, even though I already know the ending!

[CatherineM]

We listen to the audio book version in the car.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1292202670' post='2192439']
What they don't get is more and more teens are seriously into "wicca" and paganism, actually experimenting with rituals of a supernatural nature. Many teens say their interest was initially sparked by reading Harry Potter books.
[/quote]
No, their interest was sparked by watered down Christianity and poor catechesis.

[faithcecelia]

'There comes a time when we all have to choose between what is right and what is easy'



The above quote is Dumbledore talking to Harry, and has become very important to me. I have read all the books and find them to be good morally and reflective of our daily battles with evil - our lives are a constant battle between evil and good, and we all know the pain and damage evil causes in the world. As others have said, I see it no differently to the Narnia books and Lord of the Rings - a fantasy story with deep morality running through.

[jmjtina]

if you don't think LOTR is better than all your logic goes down the drain! LOL, kidding. Actually, the grade level is significantly lower in HP, but I digress......

I already have my midnight tickets to the IMAX.......3-D!!! I also have been going to the LOTR extended versions out in theaters.....boosh!!!!

with that being said, I personally wouldn't recommend for young children, it's waaaaaaay to scary and dark as the series progresses, and it does mirror the occult in some instances. Exactly? No, but I think we should be careful what our kiddos are reading and know what our kiddos are reading. But that is for a parent to decide and I completely respect it. Patrick Madrid was very against it, I heard him speak at a conference and I completely agree with him. He went through the book for us. Let me just say, it was a great year for Youth Ministry/senior CCD class discussions!

The problem comes when parents don't know what their kids are doing.......or parents completely ban it when they don't know anything about it.

and just for the record, there IS a HUGE difference in LOTR/Narnia and HP IMHO. I've already posted on this years ago.


pax.

anyone going to see all movies 2 days in a row? $38 bucks at our theater. Also they have the double feature (Part 1 and Part 2) tickets selling. I'm a huge movie buff. If I wasn't going out of town the following day I would have done the 2 day in a row treat.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1292194212' post='2192401']
Oh yeah, it would be horrific to allow my kids to read a story about loyalty, good versus evil, and an underlying theme that you have a choice between doing what's right, and what's easy.

We also need to stop reading the Wizard of Oz, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and I guess pretty much all Sci Fi really.
[/quote]


[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1292203947' post='2192444']
I do find it interesting that those who are most vehemently against Harry Potter, have never cracked open a single one of the books.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

You always hear stuff about how Harry Potter will make kids evil. In all reality, it portrays evil as the bad side, and the vast majority of readers side with the good, learn to fight for the good, and that love conquers all. Harry's parents died so that he might live... ultimate sacrifice, anyone? Later in the series, Harry is ready to do that for his friends and vice versa. From personal experience, the series teaches more about loyalty, kindness, and selflessness than anything else.

[ThePenciledOne]

For the most part it's not even the magic in HP that gets me. It's the ethics.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1309708341' post='2262631']
For the most part it's not even the magic in HP that gets me. It's the ethics.
[/quote]

Yeah...magic in a fantasy story? That's kinda...normal. I mean, do these people who complain about magic in HP not read Cinderella to their little kids?

The question is often how the magic is used. What are the...rules...of the fantasy world? In Harry Potter, magic is an ability you are born with...or you aren't. There is nothing you can do to 'become' a witch/wizard if you are born a muggle. I think this is hugely important for nipping the occult mentality of a power source that is available for anyone to tap into....

Does this mean that there aren't kids who will read Harry Potter and then become interested in learning spells? No. But it does mean that the author made a deliberate attempt to avoid that outcome.


But the ethics...there are some issues there. By establishing Gryffindors as the good guys and Slytherins as the bad guys, there is sorta an inevitable impression that anything the heroes do is okay...simply because they are the good guys. This is a flaw of many fantasy stories, but HP is not immune. In fact...forget the rule-breaking (common to many school stories) of the early books. By the last book, the 'good guys' are using 2 of the 3 Unforgivable Curses that were introduced as so horribly inappropriate in book 4. Yes, in a war situation, people will do some terrible things when caught in desperate circumstances. But...that doesn't make it okay. You can't be a good guy....unless you actually act like one. That is one lesson Tolkien was well aware of, and he was meticulous about working that into his stories.

Oh, and what makes a bad guy one of the bad guys? The single criteria is inevitably his opinion on the political/social question of blood purity. If one holds to the old fashioned idea that purebloods are better than halfbloods, muggleborns, muggles or nonhuman persons, than one is clearly marked as one of the bad guys. This single 'tell' is way too simplistic, like making all the bad guys ugly (go ahead, read her descriptions of Slytherins...even Narcissa's long blond hair is compared to a drowning victim's in the beginning of book 6). By reducing morality to a single question, the bad guys become a bit too obvious, but also bigotry is treated as the main/only crime (since that is what they all share). There is no nuance to the world views presented here, and the reader is left to comfortably view the evil characters as 'other' without encouraging much (if any) soul-searching.

So certainly some attention to the ethical underpinings could have improved the story, but the author put the effort into making it a tale with Christian themes - love, sacrifice, accepting your own death.... In fact, she thought that if people found out she were a Christian, that would 'give away' the ending of the story! In the world of Harry Potter, people have souls and there is an afterlife. Do you know how countercultural that idea is becoming?

I think the writing was mediocre (not terrible, but not brilliant, either), but that the story-telling was top notch. She knew how to keep you turning pages to figure out the mystery, and was able to merge many different types of stories into her tale. The adult characters were the best, though, and the long-term consequences of their actions was a good counterpoint to the decision-making of Harry and friends. And at the end of the day, the magical world she created was multi-faceted and enchanting.

I liked these stories enough to write my own using her world and characters

http://occlumency.sycophanthex.com/viewuser.php?uid=6945

(If you do follow that link, I cannot vouch for the rest of the content at that site. Heed all warnings.)

[elizabeth09]

I can not see God in HP as I can see God in LOTR and Narnia because we are not just dealing with good and evil, but we are also dealing with more magic then anything in my life.

[Basilisa Marie]

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[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4][quote][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]I think the writing was mediocre (not terrible, but not brilliant, either), but that the story-telling was top notch. She knew how to keep you turning pages to figure out the mystery, and was able to merge many different types of stories into her tale. The adult characters were the best, though, and the long-term consequences of their actions was a good counterpoint to the decision-making of Harry and friends. And at the end of the day, the magical world she created was multi-faceted and enchanting. [/size][/font][/color][color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]
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[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]I couldn't agree more. [/size][/font][/color]
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[/size][/font][/color]As far as the ethics go...[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]Rowling has said that she wrote Gryffindors as the good guys and Slytherins as bad because she's writing primarily Harry's perspective. As he is a Gryffindor, Slytherin is his rival house. If Gryffindors are brave, Slytherins are ambitious. The fact that most "bad" wizards are from Slytherin is simply because ambition can lead to doing some very immoral things to achieve a goal. "Good" guys use unforgivable curses not to show that they are actually okay, but to show that no one is perfect, and that the world isn't divided up into "good people and Death Eaters." I think it's meant to show that even our hero isn't immune from the temptations of doing evil for a "good reason". I think it's arguable whether the ends justify the means in that situation...if anything I think it provides a really good discussion point.[/size][/font][/color]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][color="#595959"][size=4]One becomes a bad guy by doing bad things. The blood purity issue is central because one of the primary themes of the book is bigotry and its effects on society. There are a whole lot of parallels between Voldemort and Hitler (there's even Wizarding War I and Wizarding War II). It's not simply old-fashioned to think that pure bloods are superior, but bigoted. Time and time again the books show that blood status has nothing to do with one's ability (case and point: the most adept student in Harry's class has non-magical parents). The bad guys are ugly because Rowling is showing how evil corrupts. When Voldemort was a student, he was incredibly handsome...it was only after he delved into the most evil magic that he became grotesque. Physical corruption is just another way to show that. There are many levels to the bigotry shown in the books. Wizards not only look down on their fellows of humble parentage and "muggles", but refuse to let goblins use wands, treat house-elves like slaves instead of valued servants, discount the eye-witness testimony of underage wizards, and withhold job offers from those with "medically"-controlled lycanthropy. Anyone who isn't a fully qualified adult witch or wizard without a disability is a lesser person. But it's not just the bad guys who are bigoted. Professor Slughorn (in book 6) is clearly on the side of the "good guys" but often seems to be too surprised that the best student in Harry's class is a "muggle-born." Furthermore, I think it's important to note that classism is a much bigger problem in Britain than it is in the States. Or, at least it manifests itself in different ways. [/size][/color][/font]
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[BG45]

[url="http://www.christianpost.com/news/harry-potter-author-reveals-books-christian-allegory-her-struggling-faith-29749/"]Harry Potter Author Reveals Books' Christian Allegory, Her Struggling Faith[/url]

[quote]After years of averting questions on whether Christian themes were present in her wildly popular Harry Potter books, author J.K. Rowling finally opened up this week about the Christian allegory in her latest book, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.”

During a press conference at the kick-off of her “Open Book Tour” on Monday, the British author told reporters that while religious themes were always present she purposely refrained from referencing any particular religion in order to conceal the ending.

“To me, [the religious parallels have] always been obvious,” Rowling said. “But I never wanted to talk too openly about it because I thought it might show people who just wanted the story where we were going.”

And where did the story end up? (Spoiler warning: Read no further if you don't want to find out what happens.)

Apparently, the last installment of the series is about resurrection and life after death.

In “Deathly Hallows,” Harry visits his parents’ graves at Godric’s Hallow and sees two biblical references on his parents’ tombstones, reading: “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death,” and "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

The first refers to 1 Corinthians 15:26 and the second is a direct quote from Jesus in Matthew 6:19.

By the end of the book, Harry becomes the "Master of Death" and “resurrects” from the dead the spirits of his parents, his godfather, Sirius Black and his old teacher Remus Lupin.

"They're very British books, so on a very practical note Harry was going to find biblical quotations on tombstones," Rowling explained. "[But] I think those two particular quotations he finds on the tombstones at Godric's Hollow, they sum up — they almost epitomize the whole series."

The book also begins with two religiously-themed epigraphs – one Christian, the other pagan.

Even though her books contain religious themes, the church-going author revealed that she struggles with believing in a basic Christian tenet of life after death.

"The truth is that, like Graham Greene, my faith is sometimes that my faith will return. It's something I struggle with a lot," Rowling admitted. "On any given moment if you asked me [if] I believe in life after death, I think if you polled me regularly through the week, I think I would come down on the side of yes — that I do believe in life after death. [But] it's something that I wrestle with a lot. It preoccupies me a lot, and I think that's very obvious within the books.”

Rowling was raised Christian in the Anglican Church and currently attends the Church of Scotland.

However, many conservative Christian leaders have strong denounced the author’s books as anything but detrimental to Christians and children, saying that it promotes witchcraft and the occult.

James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, had publicly criticized Harry Potter books.

“[I]t's difficult to ignore the effects such stories (albeit imaginary) might have on young, impressionable minds,” said Dobson in a statement noting the trend toward witchcraft and New Age ideology.

Pope Benedict XVI, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, had even condemned the books, writing that their “subtle seductions, which act unnoticed ... deeply distort Christianity in the soul before it can grow properly.”

But Rowling has yet to take warnings on her book’s potentially adverse influence seriously, retorting, “I go to church myself.”

"I don't take any responsibility for the lunatic fringes of my own religion,” she added.

Chuck Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries, advised parents in a past commentary on Harry Potter to teach their kids to be discerning like Daniel, who read pagan literature but “didn’t defile himself.”

Colson also recommended Christian-themed alternatives such as C.S. Lewis's Narnia books and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy.

“These books also feature wizards and witches and magic, but in addition, they inspire the imagination within a Christian framework—and prepare the hearts of readers for the real-life story of Jesus Christ,” said Colson.

"Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," the seventh and final of Rowling’s novels on the fictional Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, has been out since July 21 and has sold more than 350 million copies worldwide. It is currently on the best-sellers list of the Wall Street Journal and USA Today.[/quote]

From 2007, but seems relevant to this long running topic.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

"I believe in God, not magic." - J.K. Rowling

[Hidalgo SJS]

Repost
sorry

Edited July 17, 2011 by Hidalgo SJS

[Hidalgo SJS]

Food for thought:
http://www.instituteoftheholyspirit.com/Article-HARRY%20POTTER%20AND%20THE%20DEATH%20THAT%20FOLLOWS.pdf

I do enjoy the films, and feel that I can discuss with my children the Sacraments before, during and after the films, good vs evil. I do however understand that the actual practice of witchcraft is real, and never want to see my children or anyone take that path. So I try to educate them that that evil is real, and we pray and attend Mass and serve God fighting that evil.
God Bless!

Edited July 17, 2011 by Hidalgo SJS

[DeoDuce]

Harry Potter is definetly amesome!

[BG45]

[url="http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/271945/memento-harry-thomas-s-hibbs"]The National Review on how the final film perfectly captures the Christian sentiment of "Memento Mori".[/url]

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='Teen_Catholic' timestamp='1292190628' post='2192383']
I've been on other Catholic forums and encounter lots of people who think that Harry Potter is an acceptable book for Catholics. I disagree and believe strongly that Harry Potter is evil. What are your thoughts on this?
[/quote]

I had a very devout Benedictine monk explain Harry Potter to me. The Authoress is actually a Christian and she said that she never wanted to influence the occult or anything of that sort. But I know their are tons of kids who might not take certain elements in books lightly. Even though I have never met a kid who tooks these books too seriously.

The Benedictine monk explained that Harry is always saved by his mothers love. But he never really appreciates it. Which can be attributed to how we were saved by Gods love, and sometimes we never really appreciate it.

Their are many elements that I am sure you can contradict me on. But I have been reading this books since I was 9, with my parents. We discuss them, and we dont take them so seriously that we are "casting pretend spells"

But I could mention that I know almost everthing about the series. Even what Latin root words are derived from spells she made up.

Edited July 18, 2011 by InPersonaChriste

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1310840423' post='2268249']
"I believe in God, not magic." - J.K. Rowling
[/quote]


"I believe in the Consitution." -Barrack Obama. (Not I direct quote but just trying to draw an example.)

It's one thing to say it, but its another thing to express it.

We've been talking a lot on comparing magic from say LOTR to HP, but the fact of the matter to realize is that J.R.R. Tolkien was Catholic and loved the Eucharist above all else.

I'm not going to call Rowling's faith into question here, but for one whose novels are not exactly spot on nor are her themes that perfect all the time. And even claiming one of her character's was 'homosexual', sorry that doesn't cut any ice with me.

And this is coming from a former HP enthusist that kept up with the series for a long long time.

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311000880' post='2269403']
I'm not going to call Rowling's faith into question here, but for one whose novels are not exactly spot on nor are her themes that perfect all the time. And even claiming one of her character's was 'homosexual', sorry that doesn't cut any ice with me.

And this is coming from a former HP enthusist that kept up with the series for a long long time.
[/quote]

haha I forgot that she told someone Dumbledore was homosexual..
But he seemed to have wild years in the beginning and then to sort of repent (bad form of words I know). He did not continue to become homosexual. And did you notice that all of the Proffesors never were married, or had any love interests? I always thought that was interesting.


Sidenote: Dont mention Hagrid because he didnt start as a teacher, and he fell in love with the lady giant while he was groundskeeper.

Edited July 18, 2011 by InPersonaChriste

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1311000880' post='2269403']
"I believe in the Consitution." -Barrack Obama. (Not I direct quote but just trying to draw an example.)

It's one thing to say it, but its another thing to express it.

We've been talking a lot on comparing magic from say LOTR to HP, but the fact of the matter to realize is that J.R.R. Tolkien was Catholic and loved the Eucharist above all else.

I'm not going to call Rowling's faith into question here, but for one whose novels are not exactly spot on nor are her themes that perfect all the time. And even claiming one of her character's was 'homosexual', sorry that doesn't cut any ice with me.

And this is coming from a former HP enthusist that kept up with the series for a long long time.
[/quote]

Wait, so you're saying that because Harry Potter wasn't written by a devout Catholic, the "magic" in it must not be as innocuous as that in LOTR? If you are, that's fine, I'm just trying to understand your point here.

I think claiming Dumbledore was homosexual actually adds to his backstory. I mean, he was young and lust/love/whatever blinded him to the true nature of Grindelwald's supremacist political theories. Once Dumbledore realized that, he broke everything off and defeated him in what in the books is considered the most epic duel up until Harry and Voldemort. If anything it's an example of how disordered "love" blinds one to the true nature of evil. But regardless, the books themselves offer no support one way or another regarding the sexuality of any of the professors (other than Snape, of course).

I think what it comes down to is parents discerning whether or not their children can "handle" a series. I won't deny that some kids could definitely become interested in the occult just because they want to do the magic that Harry does, and they go looking on the internet or at a bookstore for "real" magic. But that's ultimately the fault of the parents for allowing their children to read such a series without vetting it first themselves. If I were to sit down with my kids and read Harry Potter together, I know I would be sure to also explain the real dangers of the actual occult. I mean, I wouldn't give my potential future 12 year old "The Golden Compass" to read unless I knew that he or she could handle a book about a parallel world where the Magisterium is evil. Parents should take some responsibility and know what their kids are reading.