When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[Socrates]

Human behavior and inclinations are complex, and usually can't be reduced to any one biological or environmental cause.

Experiences and habits can shape one's sexual inclinations and such, and I doubt they are irrevocably fixed at birth.

I don't think anyone is "born gay," I don't believe there is a "gay gene" anymore than there is a "pedophilia gene," a "zoophilia gene" or a "foot-fetish gene."

Acting as though one's behavior (in any area) is totally predetermined at birth, and using it to justify immoral and disordered lifestyles is lazy and sloppy, and ignores the human gift of free will.

Everyone is effected in different ways by concupiscence resulting of original sin, yet all are called to overcome this concupiscence as best we are able.

[ParadiseFound]

This is indeed a very intersting topic. I personally think that the fact that it occurs in non-human animals shows that it mostly they were born like that, though perhaps there is the occasional case of someone who was changed through some experience or other.

[CatherineM]

With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls. Doesn't matter where it comes from though, I agree that the ultimate cause is original sin.

As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed. Luckily, I have gorgeous feet, so my husband loves them either way.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296757050' post='2208239']
A counselor who I used to go to told me that he read somewhere that 15% of people who attend this type of therapy completely overcome their homosexual tendencies. Where as the majority experience some level of change.
[/quote]

The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1296758103' post='2208244']
just some thoughts of my own....
first, evolution is based on the reproduction of individuals within a population
2. It is completely true that if homosexuality were controlled 100% by genetics, it would be a disorder. (These individuals will not reproduce; their "fitness" would be zero)
3. If it were control 100% genetically, it would likely not exist at all (no one would pass on those genes).
4. There is such as thing as having a genetic "pre-disposition" to things (certain diseases, etc); you are not doomed to have the disease/disorder, but it is pretty likely that if you add in certain environmental/social factors, those things will show up.. I feel like this is probably how homosexuality works
5. I think homosexuality occurs on a spectrum rather than a black and white scale, and i think it is more likely to occur due to a combination of predisposition and personal experience, than just plain genetics or just plain choice on the the part of the individual

edit, typo
[/quote]

Facts:
1) Huntington's Disorder is the most common Genetic Disorder. In Australia about 700 out of every 100,000 (0.7%) people have Huntington's Disease.
2) Behavioral Homosexuality is found in 1-4% of the population.

Things to consider based on these facts...

1) If homosexuality is a predisposition, then more than 1-4% of the population are at risk for homosexual behavior.
+ possibly 2-10% of the population...but who really knows.
2) In the worst case scenario... up to 4% of the population is "Gay".

Conclusion:

It is unlikely that Homosexuality is Genetic since statistics are showing that a very large portion of the population is "Gay". In relation to the most Commonly known Genetic Disorder (Huntington's Disease), and given that Homosexuality is a Genetic Disorder, Homosexuality would be, at minimum, 30% more common than Huntington's Disease. And at maximum, 571% more common than Huntington's Disease. I find it very unlikely that Homosexuality (Something that God calls an abomination) is Genetic. Or even a predisposition for that matter. It would be, BY FAR, the most common Genetic Disorder.

Edited February 3, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296765688' post='2208288']
Facts:
1) Huntington's Disorder is the most common Genetic Disorder. In Australia about 700 out of every 100,000 (0.7%) people have Huntington's Disease.
2) Behavioral Homosexuality is found in 1-4% of the population.

Things to consider based on these facts...

1) If homosexuality is a predisposition, then more than 1-4% of the population are at risk for homosexual behavior.
+ possibly 2-10% of the population...but who really knows.
2) In the worst case scenario... up to 4% of the population is "Gay".

Conclusion:

It is unlikely that Homosexuality is Genetic since statistics are showing that a very large portion of the population is "Gay". In relation to the most Commonly known Genetic Disorder (Huntington's Disease), and given that Homosexuality is a Genetic Disorder, Homosexuality would be, at minimum, 30% more common than Huntington's Disease. And at maximum, 571% more common than Huntington's Disease. I find it very unlikely that Homosexuality (Something that God calls an abomination) is Genetic. Or even a predisposition for that matter. It would be, BY FAR, the most common Genetic Disorder.
[/quote]


I love the way people make up statistics to try to prove their points. The most common genetic disease in Caucasians is [url="http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/diseases.asp?did=35&title=Cystic-Fibrosis"]Cystic Fibrosis[/url] and the majority of Australians are Caucasians.

I quote: "This condition is the most common genetic lethal disorder in Caucasian people. One in every 25 babies born in Australia will carry the cystic fibrosis gene. The number of Caucasian infants affected with cystic fibrosis ranges from 1:1600 to 1:2500. Each year 70 babies are born in Australia with cystic fibrosis. As a result, new studies into better screening programs are currently being developed."

What does that have to do with whether the tendency to be homosexual is inherited or not? You are showing very skewed logic and make no sense at all.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296765688' post='2208288']
[/quote]
Props for being so open and telling your story it is very interesting.

I read once where there are stages of sexuality. First is an interest in self and exploration of ones own body and it's responses. The next stage a person will usually take interest in members of their own sex. It's a common sight to see young boys grabbing at each others family jewels. the final stage is a transfer to the opposite sex. I was interested in this because it certainly was my experience. As a child I was a bit of a bully and seemed to get a thrill out of kicking someone's but. At puberty my attactions became 'normal' and I was attracted towards girls. At the same time my anxiety disorder first appeared and I became terrified of girls. I was tortured by a strong sex drive, while at the same time wishing a 'knight in shining armour' type relationship, but was frustrated at not being able to do either due to intense shyness of girls who used to tease me in primary school. At secondary school I attended what was then called a technical or trade school which was boys only and I had no contact with females. At age twenty was the Asian war and I was called up, long story but I did 6 years. Once again only male contact. This experience with an abhorrence of the idea of homosexual acts makes it difficult for me to accept that people are influenced by life factors or by any chosen preference. I have a daughter who confesses to same sex attraction and for the life of me I cannot see anywhere that we went wrong. I wasn't always a Catholic but I have always had strong Christian values and faith in God.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
. Sometimes they get a bit crossed.
[/quote]

Whoa, cross linked files! Sorry! computer jargon.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed.
[/quote]
But how would that cause stimulation upon seeing someone else's feet?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1296776343' post='2208371']
But how would that cause stimulation upon seeing someone else's feet?
[/quote]
No clue. That's just what a psychiatrist told me as to why it is such a common fetish.

[Jaime]

I don't think that there is a "gay" gene. that being said I do believe that genetics still play a role. I think there are some people who are genetically predisposed to be open to that attraction. Just like there are people who are genetically predisposed to cancer or alcoholism doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have cancer or become alcoholics. It just means there is a greater chance than the average populace.

And I like MIkolbe's line of thinking as well.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296772241' post='2208341']
I love the way people make up statistics to try to prove their points. The most common genetic disease in Caucasians is [url="http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/diseases.asp?did=35&title=Cystic-Fibrosis"]Cystic Fibrosis[/url] and the majority of Australians are Caucasians.

I quote: "This condition is the most common genetic lethal disorder in Caucasian people. One in every 25 babies born in Australia will carry the cystic fibrosis gene. The number of Caucasian infants affected with cystic fibrosis ranges from 1:1600 to 1:2500. Each year 70 babies are born in Australia with cystic fibrosis. As a result, new studies into better screening programs are currently being developed."

What does that have to do with whether the tendency to be homosexual is inherited or not? You are showing very skewed logic and make no sense at all.
[/quote]


The statistics I showed you are from a source that I read. And you should be careful about what you say as far as skewed logic goes. The only thing I was trying to say was that I find it hard to believe that Homosexuality would be genetic; since it would be BY FAR the most common genetic disease (If it were a Genetic Disease). Besides, statistics can be viewed in different ways. There is no single way of looking at a statistic. Thats just what I gathered from the statistics from the source that I read. And from my own experience. I have been able to tell that it is possible to overcome Same Sex Attraction.

And please don't tell me you support the Gay Agenda. Don't talk to me if you do. We'll just leave it at that.

Edited February 4, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296764920' post='2208280']
The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.
[/quote]
Not sure what you're trying to prove, as the two studies you've cited come to different conclusions.

The first one states in its conclusions that:
[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296755050' post='2208234']
[b]The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. . . .
For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.[/b]

(emphasis mine)
[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls. Doesn't matter where it comes from though, I agree that the ultimate cause is original sin.

As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed. Luckily, I have gorgeous feet, so my husband loves them either way.
[/quote]


Now I have two questions.
Which foot?
the penis only has one nerve?

[Socrates]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1296761208' post='2208257']
This is indeed a very intersting topic. I personally think that the fact that it occurs in non-human animals shows that it mostly they were born like that, though perhaps there is the occasional case of someone who was changed through some experience or other.
[/quote]
Cannibalism is also common in the animal kingdom.

It's generally a bad idea to try to use animal behavior as a basis for standards of human morality.

And, as far as I'm aware, true homosexuality has not been observed in any animals closely related to man.


I also think the fact that it is not uncommon for members of a pair of identical twins (who share the same DNA and same womb environment) to grow up to have different sexual "orientations" strongly suggests that homosexuality is not entirely pre-determined by biology at birth.

The "gay gene" and infants being born homosexual remain completely unproven hypotheses.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1296778891' post='2208391']
I don't think that there is a "gay" gene. that being said I do believe that genetics still play a role. I think there are some people who are genetically predisposed to be open to that attraction. Just like there are people who are genetically predisposed to cancer or alcoholism doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have cancer or become alcoholics. It just means there is a greater chance than the average populace.

And I like MIkolbe's line of thinking as well.
[/quote]

iawtc

[Nihil Obstat]

As long as we all recognize that homosexuality is a disordered inclination, and that acting on that inclination is gravely sinful, then I don't think it matters whether it's nature or nurture.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296779437' post='2208402']
Cannibalism is also common in the animal kingdom.

It's generally a bad idea to try to use animal behavior as a basis for standards of human morality.

And, as far as I'm aware, true homosexuality has not been observed in any animals closely related to man.


I also think the fact that it is not uncommon for members of a pair of identical twins (who share the same DNA and same womb environment) to grow up to have different sexual "orientations" strongly suggests that homosexuality is not entirely pre-determined by biology at birth.

The "gay gene" and infants being born homosexual remain completely unproven hypotheses.
[/quote]

Most researchers who believe people are born gay believe its caused by hormone exposure in the womb (to much or to little test/estrogen) not a"gene"
This would refute your twins theory as well.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296760532' post='2208254']
Acting as though one's behavior (in any area) is totally predetermined at birth, and using it to justify immoral and disordered lifestyles is lazy and sloppy, and ignores the human gift of free will.

Everyone is effected in different ways by concupiscence resulting of original sin, yet all are called to overcome this concupiscence as best we are able.
[/quote]

Being homosexual =/= immoral lifestyle. Plenty of straight people who live immoral and disordered lifestyles.


Also many are using "disordered" in a negative light, when all it means is uncommon or unnatural. We are all disordered in some way.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1296752198' post='2208222']
Women encountering me are also more likely to end up dressed properly in skirts or dresses and high heels. They also become fabulous sandwich makers.
[/quote]


What a guy, we need to clone you man.

ed

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1296797930' post='2208543']
What a guy, we need to clone you man.

ed
[/quote]

Twinchester?

[ExCorde]

I just saw that [url="http://narth.com/2011/02/narth-remembers-father-john-harvey/"]Fr. John Harvey[/url] died. He was a champion of pastoral care to the faithful with same-sex attractions.

For a general collection of quotes against the "homosexual at birth" idea, here's a good one:

[url="http://narth.com/2010/09/is-sexual-orientation-fixed-at-birth/"]Is Sexual Orientation Fixed at Birth?[/url]


[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls.
[/quote]

Nah, it's just that it's more explicit in girls why they change and when. In guys it's more progressive and fixed, which also makes it appear as if they were "born with it", which I somewhat explained in an earlier post.


[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296764920' post='2208280']
The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.
[/quote]

It says people change and that it's hard. People change. It's hard. People change. Change. Get it out in the media that SOME people change and wait around for homosexual activists to tell you that there was NO change whatsoever, that they were bisexual to start with, etc. They don't want people to know that change is possible.

[u]It's very serious to say that because we can't easily fix it, that it's not a problem![/u] It hinders truly scientific work from taking place!

As research and practice progresses, better results ensue. I do recommend if you read up on the material available on the NARTH website and if you're that interested in the subject you may have already been there. However, you have missed that the reported [u]success rates from their best therapists are as good or better in the treatment of unwanted same-sex attraction than it is generally reported for common disorders such as depression[/u].

I would recommend for you to at least carefully read their disclaimer: [url="http://narth.com/2011/01/anti-gay/"]Anti-Gay?![/url]

This recent study should be interesting too (the homosexual activists criticize it for a lot less reasons than their own work has been criticized - it's just that it's hard to find where to publish and announce this in the current political and cultural climate):

[url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/083082846X/"]Ex-Gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation[/url]


[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1296772645' post='2208345']
I have a daughter who confesses to same sex attraction and for the life of me I cannot see anywhere that we went wrong.
[/quote]

If you check my first post here, I explain a bit as to it really depends on the person's subjective interpretation. It's not just "because" of you. Don't blame yourself, try to find her a good therapist (discuss things properly with them first) and give her your unconditional support. As I said, it's not uncommon for it to happen with girls, they have a hard time finding likable boys along with everything else.


[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1296789931' post='2208490']
Most researchers who believe people are born gay believe its caused by hormone exposure in the womb (to much or to little test/estrogen) not a"gene"
This would refute your twins theory as well.

Being homosexual =/= immoral lifestyle. Plenty of straight people who live immoral and disordered lifestyles.

Also many are using "disordered" in a negative light, when all it means is uncommon or unnatural. We are all disordered in some way.
[/quote]

Ok this is wrong. Researchers have tossed around all sorts of biological theories about it. In particular, they have studied twins just as much as they have studied same-sex attracted people with several brothers. They just don't know. What you're saying is just what you heard from biased media. In fact, even the American Psychological Association recently changed their spin on it to reflect the general consensus that they weren't really finding anything significant in biology, and that a "combination of factors" was the case, as you can see in the link I post at the top.

Being in homosexual relationships has a much stronger correlation to infidelity, violence and substance abuse than heterosexual relationships. And notice that I'm talking about relatively stable relationships, but most homosexuals do not have them and have dozens of different partners every year. Their own researchers are baffled by this.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1296786404' post='2208474']
As long as we all recognize that homosexuality is a disordered inclination, and that acting on that inclination is gravely sinful, then I don't think it matters whether it's nature or nurture.
[/quote]

End of the day, this is what "disordered" means. God will never have wanted you to be gay. It's not in human nature, so I hardly believe it could be in the genes. Precursors, tendencies that may condition your ability to express yourself as your own sex as it relates to a different one, yes definitely. But actual research with actual people has shown that the developmental explanations they give are true, it's just [u]very complicated to change something that has grown with you as a part of your identity and personality[/u]. But I do believe it should be a matter of concern and support to us, especially because it will keep happening even in our own families.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ExCorde