lilac_angel Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298246383' post='2214242'] Where did you receive your catechesis? Murder is not merely killing. Killing is not intrinsically immoral. ~Sternhauser [/quote] The same one Peter Kreeft got his from, apparently. Edited February 21, 2011 by lilac_angel
lilac_angel Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Don't we look at culpability in sin? Is it possible that her culpability, in God's eyes (who sees perfectly clearly into all hearts, as opposed to the inability of humans to do so) may be reduced - or, due to his infinite Mercy - mitigated to almost nothing, due to the fruits that her actions bring about, since all the unbaptized babies are saved, at least? Changing people's minds, which was the best method mentioned above by someone in opposition to what Lila Rose is doing, is extremely difficult these days; however, exposing sex traffickers has certainly changed a few minds. At least we know that she isn't likely some corrupt monster ("by their fruits you shall know them") - I'm rather glad about that recent House ruling. Edited February 21, 2011 by lilac_angel
Sternhauser Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298247512' post='2214252'] Don't we look at culpability in sin? Is it possible that her culpability, in God's eyes, may be reduced - or, due to his infinite Mercy - mitigated to almost nothing, due to the fruits that her actions bring about, since all the unbaptized babies are saved, at least? Changing people's minds is extremely difficult these days; exposing sex traffickers has certainly changed a few minds. [/quote] Are you going to come out and say it's OK to sin? Because that is precisely where your statements are pointed. Either sin is always morally wrong, or it is sometimes morally acceptable. Make your decision and stand your ground on it. ~Sternhauser
lilac_angel Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298248098' post='2214257'] Are you going to come out and say it's OK to sin? Because that is precisely where your statements are pointed. Either sin is always morally wrong, or it is sometimes morally acceptable. Make your decision and stand your ground on it. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Sin is always morally wrong; we should get those spies out of the Vatican. I'm just saying that we have to take into account intent and culpability when judging others and playing God by making a potentially non-grave sin into something graver than God sees it to be.
peach_cube Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298248098' post='2214257'] Are you going to come out and say it's OK to sin? Because that is precisely where your statements are pointed. Either sin is always morally wrong, or it is sometimes morally acceptable. Make your decision and stand your ground on it. ~Sternhauser [/quote] God forbid we discuss it, that could actually help people. Keep in mind you are talking with Catholics, as much as you want call us heretics as you did with Dr. Kreeft, we are in fact your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you are not patient enough to dialogue with people then perhaps you shouldn't...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298248591' post='2214259'] Sin is always morally wrong; we should get those spies out of the Vatican. I'm just saying that we have to take into account intent and culpability when judging others and playing God by making a potentially non-grave sin into something graver than God sees it to be. [/quote] Nobody has implied that the people we're discussing are committing mortal sins. The opposite, in fact. That doesn't mean we excuse it, or worse, encourage it.
lilac_angel Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) [quote]God forbid we discuss it, that could actually help people. Keep in mind you are talking with Catholics, as much as you want call us heretics as you did with Dr. Kreeft, we are in fact your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you are not patient enough to dialogue with people then perhaps you shouldn't...[/quote] I agree. Eradicating sin starts with eradicating sin in ourselves. Patience changes people's hearts. Lack of charity in Catholicism can drive souls away, even if the argument may be over-brimming with truth. Well-intentioned means that lack in virtue don't always bring about any good ends. Edited February 21, 2011 by lilac_angel
havok579257 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='LoreleiLynn' timestamp='1298244927' post='2214230'] [color=#333333] The commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" You must not testify falsely against your neighbor. Was Lila Rose falsely testifying against her neighbor, i.e. making things up about them? No. She didn't break the commandment. According to your logic, we should be scrupulous to a fault, making mountains out of molehills about things like the Eastern bunny to our children, surprise parties, etc. Obsessive introspection does not lead to fruitfulness.[/color] [color=#333333] [/color] [color=#333333]'It's all in the intention. For instance, God commended the DISHONEST steward. [/color] [color=#333333] [/color] [color=#333333]LUKE 16:8 "The end does not justify the means, [b]but[/b] we must be wise, and exercise common sense."[/color] [/quote] that's your rationale what thou shalt not bear false witness means? really?
lilac_angel Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298249093' post='2214264'] that's your rationale what thou shalt not bear false witness means? really? [/quote] I thought being Catholic meant having some obligation to correct error, rather than just mock it, if my interpretation was incorrect...? Eradicating sin begins with eradicating it in ourselves.
peach_cube Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298248876' post='2214262'] Nobody has implied that the people we're discussing are committing mortal sins. The opposite, in fact. That doesn't mean we excuse it, or worse, encourage it. [/quote] Well Stern has implicated Dr. Kreeft in holding heresy, I would say that we are in far more serious territory now.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1298249743' post='2214267'] Well Stern has implicated Dr. Kreeft in holding heresy, I would say that we are in far more serious territory now. [/quote] I'd submit that most Catholics unknowingly believe some sort of minor heresy. Heresy is serious, but serious doesn't necessarily translate to mortal sin. It's only one of three conditions, as you should know.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I'm also sure that Dr. Kreeft would be quick to recant if he realized how consequentialist and downright dangerous his position is.
Sternhauser Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298248591' post='2214259'] Sin is always morally wrong; we should get those spies out of the Vatican. I'm just saying that we have to take into account intent and culpability when judging others and playing God by making a potentially non-grave sin into something graver than God sees it to be. [/quote] Absolutely. I've said on the other thread on this issue that lying in such a case as the Nazis would be a very venial sin. But still a sin. And as such, still unacceptable. ~Sternhauser
Sternhauser Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1298249743' post='2214267'] Well Stern has implicated Dr. Kreeft in holding heresy, I would say that we are in far more serious territory now. [/quote] It doesn't make him a heretic, as Nihil points out. And I certainly won't judge his culpability. But given his status in the Catholic intellectual community, I will say that he should know better, in the most non-morally-condemnatory way. ~Sternhauser
MissScripture Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298258491' post='2214298'] So undercover cops = bad, right? [/quote] Stern thinks all cops are bad...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298258491' post='2214298'] So undercover cops = bad, right? [/quote] Apply the moral principles yourself. You have a yellow tag. This is a really simple one. Does the nature of undercover police work entail sin? If yes, then it's immoral. If not, then maybe it is moral. You can figure that one out without anybody's help.
havok579257 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298249549' post='2214266'] I thought being Catholic meant having some obligation to correct error, rather than just mock it, if my interpretation was incorrect...? Eradicating sin begins with eradicating it in ourselves. [/quote] so asking a question is now mocking? got it, no not really. that makes no sense.
havok579257 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298248591' post='2214259'] Sin is always morally wrong; we should get those spies out of the Vatican. I'm just saying that we have to take into account intent and culpability when judging others and playing God by making a potentially non-grave sin into something graver than God sees it to be. [/quote] we should correct our brothers and sisters when they are wrong. we should tell them that any sin, no matter how small is still a sin. we should never ever encourge sin, under any circumstance. we should not deal with culpability because we can not know this, only God knows this. we should talk about lying being a sin. God condems lying. Satan is the king od lies. we should never willing do something that God codmens and satan loves. for if we do, we grow father apart from God. correcting someone's mistakes is not being uncharitable. not correcting someone's sin is uncharitable.
havok579257 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 [quote name='lilac_angel' timestamp='1298258491' post='2214298'] So undercover cops = bad, right? [/quote] if it involves telling a lie it is a sin. if it involves withholding information but not lying then not a sin.
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